Full Version: No Bush 2004
maybe he needs to just express his opinions in a different way
| QUOTE (GermanGlenfiddich @ Jun 23 2004, 12:19 AM) |
| stemcell research,abortion,gay marriage...sounds all pretty...umh...PROGRESSIVE to me!? sure, the issues of abortion could be discussed for weeks and years,but in general, i think it should be a woman's right to decide whether she wants to have a child or not,unless she does it every second month,carelessly. the two other issue are quite indiscussable things, stemcell research could get us far and gay marriage just HAS to become a thing the generation after us takes for granted. |
Oh, really a woman's right to decide on abortion? Well, why not allow murder then, if a human can decide who must live and who must die. This way of thinking will lead us far until we end up in hell.
What if she gets raped and falls pregnant? She cant abort then?
Shes been through enough trauma without having to then carry a physical reminder of her rape and not just her mental one.
Shes been through enough trauma without having to then carry a physical reminder of her rape and not just her mental one.
| QUOTE (ChrisyBhoy @ Jun 29 2004, 07:07 AM) |
| What if she gets raped and falls pregnant? She cant abort then? Shes been through enough trauma without having to then carry a physical reminder of her rape and not just her mental one. |
You gave the response I come across the most often in the abortion dispute. The thing is that the percentage of women pregnant as a result of rape is very-very low. Again, why must an innocent child be responsible for his father's crime (rape, in this case)? If someone does you something wrong, will you go and kill his children in revenge?
After all, if God decides to give life to a human creature this or that way, how can we act against His will?
I agree with you Dennis, to say that these women are very few. Yet if this happen to a woman, I think she should have the right to get abortion. I can only imagine the trauma that a rape is. The question is not whether the child is responsible or not, we all know, it is not the case. But having to bear inside her womb the concrete proof of what she often regards as her shame is something you cannot ask of her if she doesn't wishes to. It would be too cruel and inhuman. I say this, not as a pro-choice, but as a pro-Life who can understand the destress of some women. I've known several women who got abortion. Some revolted me : killing their child for their carrier's sake or because it wasn't their husband's child, but I've also known others who just couldn't have kept a child : a 13 years old, a woman who bore a child who was not going to live more than a few years. I can understand some situations are too difficult for a woman to cope with. I have no pity for women who could have kept their child quite easily, but found it somehow "uncomfortable", I admire those who kept the child despite the difficulties, but I also understand women who were raped, who were much too young or having terribly difficult family context, or many other reasons which we might never have heard of nor even imagined.
That is all I have to say about this subject.
That is all I have to say about this subject.
Hi, Charlotte!
You write:
<but I've also known others who just couldn't have kept a child : a 13 years old, a woman who bore a child who was not going to live more than a few years.>
OK, let's have it this way: God has some plan for us, which you won't deny if you're a believer. And we cannot know exactly what the plan really is, right? When the child is conceived, there are several ways how the situation may develop, e.g. the child will be born and will live, or there'll be a natural abortion, or it will die before birth, or in the course of birth, or shortly after birth etc. But all is in the hands of God, and we cannot interfere.
In case of a 13 years old girl it may be that God is just examining her and those around her: how Christian you are? You've entered into sexual relationship in so early an age and without marriage, which I forbid, so Satan has succesfully lured you into one sin. Now I give you a child. Will you be firm enough not to be lured into another?
The second case, one with the child "who is not going to live more that a few years". No one on Earth, not even the most professional physician, can know for sure how long he/she is going to live. And even if his life is going to be short, there is a mission in it. Again, if someone tells you that, say, your closest relative is not going to live more than a few years, would you choose to kill him? I doubt.
You may object that a child in the womb and an adult person are different. For me as Catholic there's no difference at all. And if abortion is legal, legalization of murder would be a consistent next step (and some countries have already made it with eutanasia). And if murder is illegal, abortion must be made illegal also
You write:
<but I've also known others who just couldn't have kept a child : a 13 years old, a woman who bore a child who was not going to live more than a few years.>
OK, let's have it this way: God has some plan for us, which you won't deny if you're a believer. And we cannot know exactly what the plan really is, right? When the child is conceived, there are several ways how the situation may develop, e.g. the child will be born and will live, or there'll be a natural abortion, or it will die before birth, or in the course of birth, or shortly after birth etc. But all is in the hands of God, and we cannot interfere.
In case of a 13 years old girl it may be that God is just examining her and those around her: how Christian you are? You've entered into sexual relationship in so early an age and without marriage, which I forbid, so Satan has succesfully lured you into one sin. Now I give you a child. Will you be firm enough not to be lured into another?
The second case, one with the child "who is not going to live more that a few years". No one on Earth, not even the most professional physician, can know for sure how long he/she is going to live. And even if his life is going to be short, there is a mission in it. Again, if someone tells you that, say, your closest relative is not going to live more than a few years, would you choose to kill him? I doubt.
You may object that a child in the womb and an adult person are different. For me as Catholic there's no difference at all. And if abortion is legal, legalization of murder would be a consistent next step (and some countries have already made it with eutanasia). And if murder is illegal, abortion must be made illegal also
hmmm, you say, that raping women is legal, because god planned it?
| QUOTE (Fionas @ Jun 30 2004, 03:30 AM) |
| hmmm, you say, that raping women is legal, because god planned it? |
Where in my words did you see that? I say that abortion is murder, and the same is true also for a child conceived as a result of rape. Rape is not legal, it's a crime and mortal sin, by the way. As well as abortion. But well, rape is a lesser sin than murder.
you've said it's gods plan, if a woman gets pregnant, but if she gets pregnant because of a rape, god must have planned that a man rapes the woman!
she is getting pregnant because a man raped her... not because "god" has put a child into her womb...
she is getting pregnant because a man raped her... not because "god" has put a child into her womb...
| QUOTE (Fionas @ Jun 30 2004, 03:39 AM) |
| you've said it's gods plan, if a woman gets pregnant, but if she gets pregnant because of a rape, god must have planned that a man rapes the woman! she is getting pregnant because a man raped her... not because "god" has put a child into her womb... |
First of all: if the woman gets pregnant, that's because God decides so. Whatever the circumstances of gettin pregnant may be. That's the teaching of the Church (Holy Catholic and Apostolic).
Second: God is Good, and he cannot cause evil. There's the one who causes evil - the Devil. And sometimes God allows evil such as murder, rape etc. to happen. He connives at it. It may be done by Him because, as I've already written above, He wants, for instance, examine how firm we are in our faith etc.
but if God allows evil he isn't good...
if God is good he would do everything to prevent evil things...
he also caused that the Devil is bad...
if God is good he would do everything to prevent evil things...
he also caused that the Devil is bad...
I'm a Catholic too. I personnally am against abortion. But two things : God asks us to be understanding and never to judge : we will be judged too.
I don't know God's plans, you don't either. But we're only humans and it happens that we're not strong enough for God's plans : this explains many things such as suicide, abortion, depression, etc... I can tell for the 13 years old that such a girl raising a child would have been a catastrophe. I wish that to no child. You say God wants to know how firm we are in our faith. This girl had none, she was an atheist, was it useful to test her faith? Don't act and argue as if everyone were a Catholic. You're not going to convince anyone like that. I'm a Catholic, but I'm also French : I was raised an atheist and in a secular society. I believe in God, but I do not practice and rarely talk about religion at all. Religion is never considered a valuable argument and I think it is the right thing. On the one hand because it does not convince everyone; on the second hand because I think religion should never have the first place in our lives.
I didn't say eitheir that I agreed with the 13 yrs old and the other woman I was talking about. Just that I understood them. The 13 years old was completely immature. I do not believe she would ever have been able to raise nor even to love her child. Her mother said that when the girl got abortion, she went to the hospital "as easily as she would have been to the hairdresser". Is that a mother? As for the other woman, it's not easy to bear a child and everyone tells you it has a terrible disease that will make it suffer awfully during the few years of its life. I can understand she didn't feel strong enough to look at her own child suffering like that and die at the end of a much too short life. And she wanted that child, she had been trying to have it all her life. People who would call her a murderer fr that have no heart, that's what I say.
I don't know God's plans, you don't either. But we're only humans and it happens that we're not strong enough for God's plans : this explains many things such as suicide, abortion, depression, etc... I can tell for the 13 years old that such a girl raising a child would have been a catastrophe. I wish that to no child. You say God wants to know how firm we are in our faith. This girl had none, she was an atheist, was it useful to test her faith? Don't act and argue as if everyone were a Catholic. You're not going to convince anyone like that. I'm a Catholic, but I'm also French : I was raised an atheist and in a secular society. I believe in God, but I do not practice and rarely talk about religion at all. Religion is never considered a valuable argument and I think it is the right thing. On the one hand because it does not convince everyone; on the second hand because I think religion should never have the first place in our lives.
I didn't say eitheir that I agreed with the 13 yrs old and the other woman I was talking about. Just that I understood them. The 13 years old was completely immature. I do not believe she would ever have been able to raise nor even to love her child. Her mother said that when the girl got abortion, she went to the hospital "as easily as she would have been to the hairdresser". Is that a mother? As for the other woman, it's not easy to bear a child and everyone tells you it has a terrible disease that will make it suffer awfully during the few years of its life. I can understand she didn't feel strong enough to look at her own child suffering like that and die at the end of a much too short life. And she wanted that child, she had been trying to have it all her life. People who would call her a murderer fr that have no heart, that's what I say.
<Don't act and argue as if everyone were a Catholic.>
I do not act as if everyone were Catholic. But I act so that as much people as possible become Catholic. You've accused me that I'm trying to judge. I'm not, I know what Bible says. I know also that the Lord will forgive all our sins, sincerely confessed, including murder. But it is not the reason not to tell people what is good and what is not (according to the Church, of course).
<I'm a Catholic, but I'm also French : I was raised an atheist and in a secular society. I believe in God, but I do not practice and rarely talk about religion at all. Religion is never considered a valuable argument and I think it is the right thing. On the one hand because it does not convince everyone; on the second hand because I think religion should never have the first place in our lives.>
I was raised in a much more secular society than you - in the USSR. And for me religion is maybe the most valuable argument - because the authority of the Church comes from Christ Himself.
<I didn't say eitheir that I agreed with the 13 yrs old and the other woman I was talking about. Just that I understood them. The 13 years old was completely immature. I do not believe she would ever have been able to raise nor even to love her child. Her mother said that when the girl got abortion, she went to the hospital "as easily as she would have been to the hairdresser".>
Look at the reason why that 13-years old was: a) pregnant b. so light-hearted about abortion. That's because "religion's never had the first place in her life". If she'd been brought up as a Christian, she wouldn't have: a) had sex before marriage or at least before 18 b. thought about abortion, because of the idea of the sacredness of a human life AND because she would have been an adult person able to take care of her child.
I do not act as if everyone were Catholic. But I act so that as much people as possible become Catholic. You've accused me that I'm trying to judge. I'm not, I know what Bible says. I know also that the Lord will forgive all our sins, sincerely confessed, including murder. But it is not the reason not to tell people what is good and what is not (according to the Church, of course).
<I'm a Catholic, but I'm also French : I was raised an atheist and in a secular society. I believe in God, but I do not practice and rarely talk about religion at all. Religion is never considered a valuable argument and I think it is the right thing. On the one hand because it does not convince everyone; on the second hand because I think religion should never have the first place in our lives.>
I was raised in a much more secular society than you - in the USSR. And for me religion is maybe the most valuable argument - because the authority of the Church comes from Christ Himself.
<I didn't say eitheir that I agreed with the 13 yrs old and the other woman I was talking about. Just that I understood them. The 13 years old was completely immature. I do not believe she would ever have been able to raise nor even to love her child. Her mother said that when the girl got abortion, she went to the hospital "as easily as she would have been to the hairdresser".>
Look at the reason why that 13-years old was: a) pregnant b. so light-hearted about abortion. That's because "religion's never had the first place in her life". If she'd been brought up as a Christian, she wouldn't have: a) had sex before marriage or at least before 18 b. thought about abortion, because of the idea of the sacredness of a human life AND because she would have been an adult person able to take care of her child.
@ 1st : charlotte, i love that sentence "iam catholic but i am also french"...just by the way
2nd :
Dennis, what the Bible says ( a book I enjoy reading very much, even as the atheist i am) doesn't necessarily have to be the truth: apart from the fact that there are lots of other versions of the great story (try getting your hands on the kebra nagast some time) you can not always judge from what's written in there, because the book is old, the book is cryptic in certain passages ( talking bout passages : which passages talk straight against abortion? ) and i think a huge part of the bible can not be applied to modern times anymore...
about your "rape is a lesser sin than murder" ( i could come through the screen and punch you right in the face for that comment ), "god is good - the devil does the mean things", "god doesn't do anything bad" and "all misery is just a test of faith"...that's all the typical blabla i've heard a thousand times before, about many topics, everytime of course from church people...remember the history of Iob/Hiob...sure you do, as the self-incoronated voice of reason in here...the bet god and satan made : "Yeah,my man Hiob down on earth will stand strong in his faith,dude!" "Dun think so,buddy,take all his property and kill his whole family (except for his wife, who is a real battle-axe), then give him this mean sickness..."in the end Hiob cursed the day of his birth...and because he stood strong in his faith and such stuff he got it all back which is totally unrealistic...and now don't bring up things like : "faith IS unrealistic" or " it's a symbol" watch monty python's life of brian and play the "cheesemaker" part a hundred times...
damn, am i p***ed off by you...
David
2nd :
Dennis, what the Bible says ( a book I enjoy reading very much, even as the atheist i am) doesn't necessarily have to be the truth: apart from the fact that there are lots of other versions of the great story (try getting your hands on the kebra nagast some time) you can not always judge from what's written in there, because the book is old, the book is cryptic in certain passages ( talking bout passages : which passages talk straight against abortion? ) and i think a huge part of the bible can not be applied to modern times anymore...
about your "rape is a lesser sin than murder" ( i could come through the screen and punch you right in the face for that comment ), "god is good - the devil does the mean things", "god doesn't do anything bad" and "all misery is just a test of faith"...that's all the typical blabla i've heard a thousand times before, about many topics, everytime of course from church people...remember the history of Iob/Hiob...sure you do, as the self-incoronated voice of reason in here...the bet god and satan made : "Yeah,my man Hiob down on earth will stand strong in his faith,dude!" "Dun think so,buddy,take all his property and kill his whole family (except for his wife, who is a real battle-axe), then give him this mean sickness..."in the end Hiob cursed the day of his birth...and because he stood strong in his faith and such stuff he got it all back which is totally unrealistic...and now don't bring up things like : "faith IS unrealistic" or " it's a symbol" watch monty python's life of brian and play the "cheesemaker" part a hundred times...
damn, am i p***ed off by you...
David
| QUOTE |
| i think a huge part of the bible can not be applied to modern times anymore |
You think so because, as you've said, you're an atheist. As for me, I'm a believer, so I think that Bible is the eternal truth that can be applied to anything and anytime.
| QUOTE |
| talking bout passages : which passages talk straight against abortion? |
You're right, the Bible does not explicitly forbid abortions. But it explicitly forbids murder, which I believe (and the Church teaches) abortion is.
Actually, it's difficult to argue standing on so different platforms as Christianity and atheism. Because if you think the Bible is just a book, and I think it is the Eternal Truth, we'll never come to consensus:)
read it again, i edited it...added some things...
| QUOTE |
| about your "rape is a lesser sin than murder" |
Well, it actually is so. Because murder is incurable, and rape is curable. But I didn't mean that rape is not a mortal sin - it is.
You see, my man, there's God. And He's absolutely real. More real than yourself. And saying "God doesn't exist" is for me the utmost stupidity. Because everyone, including yourself, will have a chance to ascertain the fact of His existence, sooner or later. And for some people, I guess, the meeting will not be very pleasant.
Dennis,
I have no idea how secular USSR is. But have you been brought up by atheist parents? No religion at home, no religion at school, all friends muslim or atheists. I was not really fated to becoming a Catholic !
About the 13 years old. Well, I'm not sure religion would have put anything inside her head. I believe she's totally stupid and I say that because I know her. Anyway, I know atheists that are more "moral" than Christians. I think morality is not something religion gives you, even though it might be One of the way through which you're taught morality. Parents teach morality to their children, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes parents have no morality themselves. About marriage, the 13 years old is convinced she has found the man of her life (I think he'll run away as soon as he gets a French passport). She wanted to marry him but can't because she's too young. She has to wait until she's 15 and get her parents'permission. If she had waited for marriage, the result would have been exactly the same as she's just as stupid and irresponsible now as she was at 13.
One more thing, about rape is a lesser crime than murder. I'd rather be killed than raped. Let that suffice.
I have no idea how secular USSR is. But have you been brought up by atheist parents? No religion at home, no religion at school, all friends muslim or atheists. I was not really fated to becoming a Catholic !
About the 13 years old. Well, I'm not sure religion would have put anything inside her head. I believe she's totally stupid and I say that because I know her. Anyway, I know atheists that are more "moral" than Christians. I think morality is not something religion gives you, even though it might be One of the way through which you're taught morality. Parents teach morality to their children, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes parents have no morality themselves. About marriage, the 13 years old is convinced she has found the man of her life (I think he'll run away as soon as he gets a French passport). She wanted to marry him but can't because she's too young. She has to wait until she's 15 and get her parents'permission. If she had waited for marriage, the result would have been exactly the same as she's just as stupid and irresponsible now as she was at 13.
One more thing, about rape is a lesser crime than murder. I'd rather be killed than raped. Let that suffice.
| QUOTE |
| I have no idea how secular USSR is. |
communism has no religion
to refer it a bit to ireland here a little story:
the RIRA (they're the commies in Eire, ye know) went to stalin to ask him for support, because they were communists, too.
Stalin looked at them and asked them: So, you are communistic? Then tell me how many priests you've already killed!
The envoys looked very shocked, turned away and headed straight back to Eire
Dennis, you believe in God and the holy Bible, right?
do you believe that the earth was build in seven days, too?
| QUOTE |
| Dennis, you believe in God and the holy Bible, right? do you believe that the earth was build in seven days, too? |
Yes, I believe in it. There's nothing impossible for God.
Charlotte:
Thanks God, USSR WAS and is no more. Now there are 15 independent states in this territory, one of which - Russia - is my place of residence.
USSr is no more what? secular or communist, or both?
| QUOTE (Charlotte @ Jul 2 2004, 05:45 AM) |
| USSr is no more what? secular or communist, or both? |
USSR does not exist as a country. USSR stood for the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
Interesting observation: only two topics have more than 1 page: this and "Abortions".
oh sorry. A bit of misundertanding.
PS : actually no, there are many others. But they're not on the same page.
is this Bush.com?
http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/tshirt.php?sku=a291
Hoho... Dennis, I'm not even gonna start... (Got the hint Charlotte?).
I'm athe�st, god does not exist, so: I do not have to fear any judgement at all (except my own of course). The bible is good thriller ok, I admit... But for the rest bit of rubbish with some historical notes...
Indeed give Monty Python's Life of Brian: ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!
Oh Dennis: one thing: you're to dogmatic: If you're a Catholic so convinced of his own, well, realise then how a Protestant, Anglican, Hindu can feel the same way. Or Muslims?! Look where dogmatic views of religion end... Now it are a faction of Muslims, in the Middle Ages it where the Christians... All because they were so right... Sigh! I'm a Socialist, do you think I believe Socialism is THE right thing? Absolutely not... I'm open to many ideas... I just like that one idea more than the others. I don't mean to necessarely convince everyone of my ideas (or worse: me being right) and I don't have too! Let everyone have their ideas... PLURALISM... You're just doing the same thing as your old Soviet compats, saying one idea is the only right or good one... Dogmatic, just too dogmatic...
Pluralism and repect for another ones idea, if it isn't a nazi of course... Or a Stalinist commie...
I'm athe�st, god does not exist, so: I do not have to fear any judgement at all (except my own of course). The bible is good thriller ok, I admit... But for the rest bit of rubbish with some historical notes...
Indeed give Monty Python's Life of Brian: ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!
Oh Dennis: one thing: you're to dogmatic: If you're a Catholic so convinced of his own, well, realise then how a Protestant, Anglican, Hindu can feel the same way. Or Muslims?! Look where dogmatic views of religion end... Now it are a faction of Muslims, in the Middle Ages it where the Christians... All because they were so right... Sigh! I'm a Socialist, do you think I believe Socialism is THE right thing? Absolutely not... I'm open to many ideas... I just like that one idea more than the others. I don't mean to necessarely convince everyone of my ideas (or worse: me being right) and I don't have too! Let everyone have their ideas... PLURALISM... You're just doing the same thing as your old Soviet compats, saying one idea is the only right or good one... Dogmatic, just too dogmatic...
Pluralism and repect for another ones idea, if it isn't a nazi of course... Or a Stalinist commie...
We all want to PROGRESS in life, not?
Well, let's all be PROGRESSIVE! lol
Well, let's all be PROGRESSIVE! lol
If the opposite of 'Pro' is 'Con', does that mean the opposite of 'Progress is Congress'? hmmm....
well,sorry for disappointing,but (as far as my knowledge of latin goes) the opposite of pro isn't necessarily "con"..."con-"/"cum-" as prefixes usually mean "with, together" as in COM-unity,COM-Unication,CON-Sense
in the example of " progressive " it's even different...pro doesnt mean "in favor of,for" here, but "forward". pro + a form from which the word migrare (as in immigrant) derives - don't ask me which word that might be. "going forward"
okay,enough of the philology
good to know somebody knows the joys of a good monty, christophe. but something about the political things in your post. as soon as you make exceptions, like "Pluralism and repect for another ones idea, if it isn't a nazi of course... Or a Stalinist commie... " you open the door for ideas being oppressed. i think the only real way for pluralism (which is a system i strongly believe in) is to make a use of your right to ignore ideas such as the neofascist ones...let them be but don't let them get YOU...
Greetings,
david
in the example of " progressive " it's even different...pro doesnt mean "in favor of,for" here, but "forward". pro + a form from which the word migrare (as in immigrant) derives - don't ask me which word that might be. "going forward"
okay,enough of the philology
good to know somebody knows the joys of a good monty, christophe. but something about the political things in your post. as soon as you make exceptions, like "Pluralism and repect for another ones idea, if it isn't a nazi of course... Or a Stalinist commie... " you open the door for ideas being oppressed. i think the only real way for pluralism (which is a system i strongly believe in) is to make a use of your right to ignore ideas such as the neofascist ones...let them be but don't let them get YOU...
Greetings,
david
Christophe:
The thing is that pluralism, I mean the real one, presupposes freedom to express one's opinion. If you're a Socialist, OK, you have the right to defend your point of view and persuade people that Socialism is the right thing. If you, as you write, are open to many ideas, it's also OK. And if I say that I'm a Catholic, and I'm not open to any other ideas as regards religion, it MUST be also OK (if we have pluralism, of course). Because my point of view is based upon the Bible and the Magisterium, and as far as they are dogmatic, I have an unalienable right to be dogmatic too. And it's your right to argue.
The thing is that pluralism, I mean the real one, presupposes freedom to express one's opinion. If you're a Socialist, OK, you have the right to defend your point of view and persuade people that Socialism is the right thing. If you, as you write, are open to many ideas, it's also OK. And if I say that I'm a Catholic, and I'm not open to any other ideas as regards religion, it MUST be also OK (if we have pluralism, of course). Because my point of view is based upon the Bible and the Magisterium, and as far as they are dogmatic, I have an unalienable right to be dogmatic too. And it's your right to argue.
I just remembered a poem by my good friend Bridgette Kinloch.... psalm2003
Psalm 2003
Bush is my shepherd, I shall be in want.
He leadeth me beside the still factories,
He maketh me to lie down on park benches,
He restoreth my doubts about the Republican party,
He guideth me onto the paths of unemployment for the
party's sake.
I do fear the evildoers, for thou talkest about them
constantly.
Thy tax cuts for the rich and thy deficit spending
They do discomfort me.
Thou anointeth me with never-ending debt,
And my savings and assets shall soon be gone.
Surely poverty and hard living shall follow me,
And my jobless children shall dwell in my basement
forever
Bridgett Kinloch
Psalm 2003
Bush is my shepherd, I shall be in want.
He leadeth me beside the still factories,
He maketh me to lie down on park benches,
He restoreth my doubts about the Republican party,
He guideth me onto the paths of unemployment for the
party's sake.
I do fear the evildoers, for thou talkest about them
constantly.
Thy tax cuts for the rich and thy deficit spending
They do discomfort me.
Thou anointeth me with never-ending debt,
And my savings and assets shall soon be gone.
Surely poverty and hard living shall follow me,
And my jobless children shall dwell in my basement
forever
Bridgett Kinloch
GermanGlenfiddich
| QUOTE |
| you make exceptions, like "Pluralism and repect for another ones idea, if it isn't a nazi of course... Or a Stalinist commie... " you open the door for ideas being oppressed. i think the only real way for pluralism (which is a system i strongly believe in) is to make a use of your right to ignore ideas such as the neofascist ones...let them be but don't let them get YOU... |
I was pluralist in that way! But people in MY country (Belgium) and region (Flanders) learned me that people seldom learn from history... Now, in Flanders, 24% have voted for a far-, ultraright party: The Vlaams Blok. This is a party wich is lead by people (and I'm not making it up, just because I'm a leftie and they're extreme-right) who have nazi-sympathies, are negationists (saying the holocaust is made up by the Jews), slogans in type "Put them (foreigners) on a plane and drop them in their own country". People who gather at old Flemish Waffen SS meetings etceterae etceterae... I'm living what I never lived before: People now openly state that they have voted for that party and WHY... Why: "Dirty foreigners, dirty this, dirty that"... I'm living in the RICHEST region in the world and people are uncomfortable with society (which provides them all thy really need) with their life, are untolerable with other people, foreigners or a neighbour who has a bigger car than their own... A guy said me he was in France and he was proud he could say "Je suis un Flamand!"-"I'm a Fleming". No problem, but then he told he couldn't really have the right to say that, he claimed, because his father (white and born here: a native) was a Walloon, a French speaking Belgian. He said: "So, that makes me a bastard! CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?! The PURE FLEMISH RACE?! A good Arian Fleming?! And I could tell you a dozen other stories that are even worse...
Do we let those people say what they want? In many European countries (Belgium too) there are anti-racism and anti-discrimination laws. Are these laws a threat to pluralism?! I don't think so! Hitler got in power with 30% of the votes and forbode all other parties... Does this have to start all over again?! I'm getting enraged when thinking at it... So,pluralism? YES! Untolerance? Racism? NO! Than I'll say to a Vlaams-blok fellow-citizen: "Sod off, you miserable nazi-schwein!" And I won't even think twice... Phew...
Dennis
| QUOTE |
| If you're a Socialist, OK, you have the right to defend your point of view and persuade people that Socialism is the right thing. |
I never persuade people Socialism is the right thing, I seldom persuade them Socialism is a good thing. Why, I only persuade them if they ask me for it, or in political discussions with political opponents who are not to be persuaded!
Dennis
Dennis
| QUOTE |
| And if I say that I'm a Catholic, and I'm not open to any other ideas as regards religion, it MUST be also OK |
Tell that to North-Irish protestants you want to persuade that the Unity of Ireland is a good thing!
Quite short-sighted that is...
You are a radical... Wanna know what a radical is?
A radical is somebody with his head high in the clouds or deep in the sand...
Quite short-sighted that is...
You are a radical... Wanna know what a radical is?
A radical is somebody with his head high in the clouds or deep in the sand...
...but not everyone with his head high in the clouds is radical...
maybe just radical when it comes to "Legalize it"
Fionas
| QUOTE |
| ...but not everyone with his head high in the clouds is radical... |
Yeah! I know: I'm a man deeply in love (girlfriend )... So I guess I've got me head a wee bit high in the clouds meself! And I hope it may dure long, my whole life! ...
I was just "a bit" pissed in that mail, I just can bare that attitude anymore: Attitude of "I may say whatever I want without caring about anyone..." This world is really going to smithereens...
I was just "a bit" pissed in that mail, I just can bare that attitude anymore: Attitude of "I may say whatever I want without caring about anyone..." This world is really going to smithereens...
And you what the best co�ncidence is? She votes and is socialist too! How small could that chance have been? (In Flanders 1/5, Wallony almost 2/5 votes socialist, but that doesn't mean of course they really are...). She's more center than I am, but hey, who am I!...
Started reading the thread. Sounded well good and interesting.
Sadly it seems that the subject went well off track. I thought that this thread was about Bush and Kerry?
Seems it has turned into some slanging match about abortion and morality issues.
My comments about Bush and Kerry ?????
I have none really. All I can say is that Bush has shown his colours and we all know what they are and would be in the future. Kerry. I don't know him, but to me he seems to be slime too.
In other words what does it matter who gets in. It will not change anything. Well not dramtically with respect to Ireland ........
There will still be the Iraq issue, Bin Laden, Terrorists and so on. They won't go away over night.
I spent most of my time last month in BOSTON/Cambridge (MIT) and Hartford (Connecticut) the latter - what a hole.
I reckon that Bush will win, from what I could gather from there.
Good to see that some old names are still posting. I still look from time 2 time but lately (Last months to be precise) the content has been questionable.
Sadly it seems that the subject went well off track. I thought that this thread was about Bush and Kerry?
Seems it has turned into some slanging match about abortion and morality issues.
My comments about Bush and Kerry ?????
I have none really. All I can say is that Bush has shown his colours and we all know what they are and would be in the future. Kerry. I don't know him, but to me he seems to be slime too.
In other words what does it matter who gets in. It will not change anything. Well not dramtically with respect to Ireland ........
There will still be the Iraq issue, Bin Laden, Terrorists and so on. They won't go away over night.
I spent most of my time last month in BOSTON/Cambridge (MIT) and Hartford (Connecticut) the latter - what a hole.
I reckon that Bush will win, from what I could gather from there.
Good to see that some old names are still posting. I still look from time 2 time but lately (Last months to be precise) the content has been questionable.
And if the subject continues about abortion then consider the issue from the law as it stands in Ireland, North and South.
I am not going to give an opinion on the subject as I personally find the matter far 2 intrigate.
But coming to the point of this forum (WHICH IS Ireland) the law in Ireland as it stands can be described as follows.
NORTH
Totally outlawed in 1861, modified in 1945, stating that abortion was not an offence if it was done to save the mother's life. T
his legal status only applies to abortions carried out after the 28th week of pregnancy, leaving doctors to use their individual judgement on cases up to 27 weeks on the following grounds.
A woman can have an abortion if she has a serious medical or psychological problem that can endanger her life if she continues with her pregnancy.
She has severe learning difficulties; (I Don't get this one)
Doctor's detect abnormalities in the foetus;
If she become pregnant as a result of rape.
If a woman falls outside of these categories she is allowed to go abroad to have an abortion. Mostl go to England which accepts upto the 24 week.
The UK adopted a new abortion law in 67 which was not applied to Northern Ireland, which gives full rights to the woman. SUCH AS ECONOMIC GROUNDS AND SO ON.
SOUTH
It is currently illegal for anyone to have an abortion in Eire. However, the law does allow pregnant women to receive counselling and information about support options.
Women that decide to have an abortion are allowed to leave Eire to go abroad. Most travel again to England.
Enough Said
I am not going to give an opinion on the subject as I personally find the matter far 2 intrigate.
But coming to the point of this forum (WHICH IS Ireland) the law in Ireland as it stands can be described as follows.
NORTH
Totally outlawed in 1861, modified in 1945, stating that abortion was not an offence if it was done to save the mother's life. T
his legal status only applies to abortions carried out after the 28th week of pregnancy, leaving doctors to use their individual judgement on cases up to 27 weeks on the following grounds.
A woman can have an abortion if she has a serious medical or psychological problem that can endanger her life if she continues with her pregnancy.
She has severe learning difficulties; (I Don't get this one)
Doctor's detect abnormalities in the foetus;
If she become pregnant as a result of rape.
If a woman falls outside of these categories she is allowed to go abroad to have an abortion. Mostl go to England which accepts upto the 24 week.
The UK adopted a new abortion law in 67 which was not applied to Northern Ireland, which gives full rights to the woman. SUCH AS ECONOMIC GROUNDS AND SO ON.
SOUTH
It is currently illegal for anyone to have an abortion in Eire. However, the law does allow pregnant women to receive counselling and information about support options.
Women that decide to have an abortion are allowed to leave Eire to go abroad. Most travel again to England.
Enough Said
| QUOTE |
| In other words what does it matter who gets in. It will not change anything. Well not dramtically with respect to Ireland ........ |
In the past 4 years that GW has been in office, He has successfully driven the economy down to an all time low. He has spent billions and billions of $$ on a war that not only was without the UNs blessing, but was not even neccesary. He has had hundreds of American soldiers killed for no reason. He has also successfully pissed off every country in the world and become the most hated man in the world. Do you think the terrorist threat in the US has nothing to do with him or his 'mad' policies? What does it matter who gets in? It matters ALOT.
John Kerry wouldnt be my first choice, but more importantly, BUSH HAS TO GO!
NO BUSH IN 2004
President Bush offered up a new entry for his catalog of "Bushisms" on Thursday, declaring that his administration will "never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people."
Read more...
Read more...
Thats our Prez, as articulate as ever
A baboon is even more bloody articulate!
Catholic Boy Through and Through
Fuck the Red, White, And Blue!
Not a Republic as in the United States, where the power of the purse has established a new tyranny under the forms of freedom.
James Connolly
What a man James was, he knew then what is happening now, nothing has changed people! WAKE UP!
Fuck the Red, White, And Blue!
Not a Republic as in the United States, where the power of the purse has established a new tyranny under the forms of freedom.
James Connolly
What a man James was, he knew then what is happening now, nothing has changed people! WAKE UP!
yeah, John Kerry isnt any better... Nader is the best choice...but if it were between kerry and bush, it'd be bush...and about the 'fuck the red, white and blue' shit...go fuck yourself
| QUOTE |
| Catholic Boy Through and Through Fuck the Red, White, And Blue! Not a Republic as in the United States, where the power of the purse has established a new tyranny under the forms of freedom. James Connolly What a man James was, he knew then what is happening now, nothing has changed people! WAKE UP! |
Absolutely BRILLIANT!
I couldn't agree more! My best choices are Howard Dean for Pres. and Ralph Nader for Vice-Pres. Should do those short-sighted Americans some good! (Not all hey Patrick!
)...
No offence taken
But seriously, Bush has GOT to go. I truly believe that if re-elected for another 4 years, It will be the 'begining of the end' of the world. People just dont realize the shit Bush has done. He is a MADMAN
But seriously, Bush has GOT to go. I truly believe that if re-elected for another 4 years, It will be the 'begining of the end' of the world. People just dont realize the shit Bush has done. He is a MADMAN
You guys remember I told you Bush and Kerry are members of the same fraternity and blood brothers in the traditional sense? Now, obviously these people want to have as many of their guys in high places as possible, right? We have to ask ourselves why Bush is making such an idiot of himself? I mean, sure he's stupid, no doubt about it, but why are his advisors and puppetmasters letting him make it known?
The only reason I can think of is he's being used to draw attention away from something or someone. Among the less sinister alternatives is that he's being used as a "wingman" for Kerry, you know, the guy you stand next to to make yourself look better. I mean, compared to Bush, this Kerry guy has got to be better, right? No matter how bad HE is. What do we actually know about Kerry?
The only reason I can think of is he's being used to draw attention away from something or someone. Among the less sinister alternatives is that he's being used as a "wingman" for Kerry, you know, the guy you stand next to to make yourself look better. I mean, compared to Bush, this Kerry guy has got to be better, right? No matter how bad HE is. What do we actually know about Kerry?
Werewolf, maith thu! I think the same!
___________________________
Masonic Lodge "Great West" presents...
Bush as Naughtyboy
and
Kerry as Smartarse
in
"ELECTIONS"
(No any mason was hurt during the elections)
___________________________
Masonic Lodge "Great West" presents...
Bush as Naughtyboy
and
Kerry as Smartarse
in
"ELECTIONS"
(No any mason was hurt during the elections)
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.