Hi everyone,

My first post here, so do be gentle. Anyway, I consider myself a Republican - That is, I believe Ireland should be one nation. I've very interested in the songs of the movement, and that is what brought me to your fine site.However, as a British citizen, I've been in the Army for a little over 3 years. Reading over this board, I'm deeply disturbed by some of the sentiments: "We should be killing the BA instead of the PSNI" and labelling entire regiments as "Terrorists" and "Murderers".

It's extremely alarming: I joined up as a young man looking for direction in my life. I recieved a good wage, was fed well and had some of the best times of my life. I love the Army, and am proud to wear it's uniform. I'm proud to call myself a soldier. I'm also proud to call myself a Republican.

I suggest you look at yourselves and consider the men you are promoting the murder of. These are just boys like myself, doing a job. We've no interest in party politics, we're not bigots, and we're not terrorists. If you really care for a unified Ireland, and most importantly, for the human beings stuck in the middle of this god awful shitty mess, you'd be doing everything possible to prevent the murders, and trying to promote a political compromise. Killing Scottish soldiers who sympathise with your cause does nobody any favours.

Thoughts?

Weren't you a paratrooper?

Hi,

welcome to the Forum, Rab!

Some of the british Army Troops and most of the PSNI are cruel Bastards!
read this article

if you search a littlebit with google, you should find plenty more articles like that...

I dont want to say that the whole british army is an evil organisation...

but in fact, the PSNI acts against human rigths, and the british troops in northern Irland are supporting them...

and we have to do something against that (and I dont mean to go out on street and kill some poor scottish soldiers )

I am not involved with the Parachute regiment.

The British Army only does what the elected politicians tell us to - It is not the soldiers that want to help the PSNI, but the government that want us to help them. It's not our fault.

and you can't say "no, that is not correct" or so? (like those starfleet troops from star trek)

If I may be cynical : this is a war and in a war it's pretty natural that some soldiers get killed...
By the way, the reponsible of it are for sure those who sends those soldiers over (mostly young lads of 18 if I believe what I've been told from a paratrooper I once got to talk with)
Yet I agree with Fionas, many of them acted and act as terrorists and murderers, and not only in 1972...

Failte Rab, welcome to the site. Formalities over...

First off, I do not believe you can be a Republican and at the same time make up the ranks of the very army Republicanism hopes to cleanse from this land forever. You are strenghtening their position, supporting and maintaining the occupation of our island and providing the fingers that may pull the trigger on our children in the future. Don't disgrace Republicanism by calling yourself a Republican. Believing that Ireland should be one nation does not make you a Republican. I hope one day that the Palestinian people will have their homeland returned to them, but that does not make me a Palestinian Nationalist. Even so, I know I would never join the Israeli Army, no matter how good the blood money.

I'm glad you're "deeply disturbed" and "extremely alarmed" by what you've read on this site. Look what foreign occupation leads to. Maybe it'll make you open your fuckin eyes a bit. Maybe you'll look at the situation through your eyes rather than through a rifle scope.

It doesn't matter what age, sex or nationality British soldiers are. A British soldier is a British soldier. Plain and simple. What difference if you're "just boys" or Scottish? Many of our volunteers were young too. Did that stop the Brit Army and their "chums" in the RUC from using a shoot-to-kill policy? The Paras weren't too discriminating when it came to age or sex on Bloody Sunday, were they now?

Once you are a member of the British Army, you are a target. Don't give me this bollox that it's just your job, what you have to do, that you have no choice. If you were genuinely concerned about the reunification of Ireland, you would never have joined the Brit Army in the first place.

Of course you're not interested in party politics. You're interested in death. Killing. Murder. It's your job, your profession, probably the only trade you know. One that you take great pride in. You murder for money. Wasn't too long ago that spilling the blood of Irishmen was what put bread on the table of a Brit squaddie. Who's to say them days won't return? We'll be ready if they do.

I'm glad you get paid a good wage Rab, I really do. I hope it can buy you peace of mind from the thoughts that, in all probability, the regiment you serve has shed the blood of innocent Irish men and women in your name. If that doesn't bother you then maybe the frontline is the best place for you.

Sl�n

Oh, fuck me, that had me in bits! Sorry, that was posted while I was posting a reply.

Well, it's not the IRAs fault that the British Army invaded, so it must be ok to kill Brit squaddies in defence, right? Right?!

Many people who claim to be "Republicans" are British taxpayers. They give the money that buys the bullets that go into my SA-80. It is also the British taxpayers who elect the politicians who choose to send the soldiers. If I am guilty of murder, then they are guilty of culpable homicide.



The British deployment in Northern Ireland (as far as I'm aware) doesn't contain any sections of the Parachute Regiment - I believe at present it's 3 Infantry brigades. And yes, you're right that it's all too frequently young lads who're deployed.

I don't attempt to excuse the mistakes of the past - I merely choose to suggest that in recent years attitudes within the Army have changed for the better. I am a young man, I joined when I was 16, and have been in service for 3 years. I wasn't even born when many of the defining moments of the insurgency took place. I cannot relate to the events - And I dare say that many people around can cannot either.



'To support the RUC in the defeat of terrorism and assist in the Government's objective of restoring normality to the Province.'

That's the army's mission statement. That is what we are attempting to do. If those goals are achieved, the Army leaves. Shooting more soldiers merely means that more soldiers are sent. I find it rather amusing the way you describe it as "our" island, and "our" children. I'm of Irish decent myself - My Great-Grandfather served with the ICA - I hang his Starry Plough above my bed. I've got more of a claim to "Ireland" than the bulk of the gun-running Sein Fein supporters do.

Furthermore, your claim that Republicanism is related to "cleansing" the Army is a distortion of the truth. That represents only your own view. If you take the majority view, Republicanism is progressive and democratic. It is, presently, the minority who resort to arms. Please, this is not the 1970s - Times have moved on. There is no need to go over the past. I pray you have some kind of hope for peace.



Clever reference to an event sure to bring emotions to the surface. Just a shame that it was 30 years ago. Times have changed. Certainly, that was an tragic and shameful event. But there is no moral authority when you look at the tragedy at Omagh.



You're quite correct - But I never feel ashamed of what I do. I was able to get out of a shithole because of the uniform. I was able to do things I could never have dreamed of. That is a soldier's job - It's his role in life. I don't see such scathing critism of our American counterparts for their role in Iraq around these forums.



When I signed up, my old man brought out a book. It had a phrase in it: "If any question why we died, tell them that our fathers lied". It's not anyone's role to send a man to his death. "The Frontline" as you define it, doesn't exist. You're obsessed with bring up events of past to instill a patriotic fever; actions of a skilled propagandist perhaps, but not the actions of one who wants security, peace and most importantly, democracy in Northern Ireland.

Hello there Rab, welcome to the board!

Well, I must agree with you on some of your points; not all BA soldiers are murderers, some of them have good intentions... I�m sure that�s true!

HOWEVER

I�m sure there were alot of "good lads" in Hitlers armies, Stalins armies and Francos armies... But that doesn�t make them less of enemies!
It is true this is terrible, but if you�re a soldier in the British army, you are the enemy, no matter what your intentions are.

That�s what war is Rab!
And if you consider yourself a Republican (you�re more of a Nationalist to be honest...), you should really get out of the BA.
Aslong as your in there, you can really not be called a Republican or Nationalist, for you are the enemy.

Yes, that's the problem. British taxpayers by choice? I think not. And by saying that it is the taxpayers who elect the politicians, who in turn order the soldiers in, it is the public who are ultimately to take resposibility for the actions of the Brit Army?! Most Brits have no clue as to what is happening or what has happened in Ireland. They are no judge as to what actions should be taken in Ireland. To be honest either are British politcians. Wanna know why? Cause they don't fuckin live here.



It's no wonder peace is unobtainable in the Six Counties when you read this type of bullshit. First, I obviously don't see the IRA as terrorists. My opinion. We've talked about this before, maybe while you were polishing boots, we don't need to go into it again. As for "restoring normality to the Province"; this is exactly why we need the Provos off their fuckin ceasefire and back in action. "Normality" equals the acceptance of British rule forever. It equals the abandonment of every inch of progress we've made. Our sacrafices will have been for nothing if the British become accepted in our land.

How can you have no shame in your line of work and at the same time be appalled by the prospect of the IRA killing British soldiers? You're quick to accuse me of being a propagandist, but its seems to me you couldn't recognise the propagandists within the British Army who instilled into your mind that you are a "normalisation force", fighting the good fight to secure the Six as part of the UK, as it always has been.

It's typical of those in the British establishment to just sweep history under the carpet. "Forget about it. That was 30 years ago, you're living in the past. Stop bringing up the past". Yeah, you'd love that. It'd suit your agenda perfectly to have the massacres and attrocities carried out by the British to be just forgotten in a the mist of false optimism and false hope that is the GFA. You talk about the past as if it is wrong to remember those who were murdered by the British Army. We will never forget the past. We honour those who have been taken from us, and the least we owe to them is to never forget.

Sl�n

.....as for you saying "times have changed"! All I can say is: THAT�S A FUCKING LIE! True, Bloody Sunday was 30 years ago... Look at what�s happening in Short Strand these days! www.32s.org
Look at that video Rab, and tell me about your great "PSNI/RUC/Murdering bastards", these people are the ones you help!
I�m sure your intentions are all good, but you should really open your eyes and look around you. It�s not in the past, it still IS!

Fully agreeing with that statement, as cynical as it may seem


Rab, your remark about the paratroopers is probably true. But first of all I'd like to tell you that I am a French speaker, meaning my knowledge of English is limited. I saw the word, picked it up and I am not sure it's the right one. Moreover, if that is, this man I was talking about was in Ireland a fair few years ago, maybe there were paratroopers at the time, I have no idea.



Indeed !


And fully agreeing with each point of Fianna's long message.

Slan agat

I agree with the others that postet before me, but...

Rab, imagine following:

you say you are a republican, rigth?
and you are in the british army...
now imagine the brits would start a new invasion, for whom would you fight? the british Army, or the Irish Republican Army?

Under the European Union's treaty of Rome, that is, Freedom of the movement of Labour, every single citizen of the United Kingdom can leave the country and reside in another other member state. That is, if British people cared so deeply, they too could move out and stop supporting the "Occupation". Bottom line? Most people aren't that worried about what goes on in Northern Ireland - And like me, have only sympathies to one side or the other.

They choose to support "The Occupation" in every way as much as I do. And by your logic, are liable to be shot and killed. Because "This is war" is it not?



Is this best thing for Northern Ireland, and I mean this in a serious way, another 25 years of bombings, shooting and civil strife, or is it a peaceful and democratic administration that gives some hope of peace for the future. Because that's what the majority of the Republican movement believes in. If you choose to stand outside that, and promote the return to arms, you're a coward. Unless you pick up arms with them, I have no respect. There's little there but a large mouth.



Because my work has included time in Bosnia and Kuwait / Iraq as well as Northern Ireland. That's why I have no shame. I have no shame because I'm not a murderer. I'm appauled because in the end, your views do not represent the majority of Northern Ireland, nor those of the Nationalist community as a whole. You represent nothing. You have no concern for the wellbeing of your neighbours. If anyone is the murderer between the two of, I dare suggest it is you.



It'd suit your agenda equally well to forgot the fact that the Provisional IRA, and their spliter groups, were and are masters of killing civilians. Claudy? Aldershot? Omagh? Enniskillen? There is no moral highground. Only a hope for peace - Because peace, regardless of who's flag it's under, is the best thing for Northern Ireland. It's not what I hope will happen to it, but it's the best thing for it's people.



But I am a subject of the United Kingdom - Whether I'm involved with the Army or not I'm still contributing. It is the politicians who send the Army. How many times must I reiterate this point? The Army does what it's told. The blame lies at Westminster rather than at a barracks.



For a start, the democratically elected government of the United Kingdom would never sanction such a move. It just wouldn't happen. If it did happen, it would mean that parliament had ceased to be a liberal democracy, and that means I would have no loyalty to it. In that matter I would not fight at all - I'd perhaps raise this flag:

Puting on a Uniform doesnt make it right!
If you are THAT FUCKING BRAINWASHED that you will do as you are told simply because the 'Commander' told you to, than you are DEFINATELY Brit Military.
If they told you to fire-bomb Short Strand for 'Military Security' reasons, Would you do it? Of course you would because you are BRAINWASHED! Hiding behind a Uniform and thinking its OK to kill and Slaughter is just WRONG! But the Queen tells you its OK, so you believe it. Can you say DOLT?
Your Military has told you that the IRA are terrorists. They told you that the IRA are the bad guys. It all seems pretty one-sided to me. If you were to question the very people that instructed you about getting to the root of the problem. If you were to ask them why the fighting has been going on for hundreds of years. The REAL reason the fighting has gone on this long, They would probably brand you as a traitor and send you to prison. All for thinking on your own. Hmmm, Do you see a pattern here yet? WAKE THE FUCK UP!

Beat the Brits by ignoring them

I think you would have shoot Micheal Collins if you would lived in that time...

http://www.celtic-lyrics.com/lyrics/219

Please someone for God's sake, take that fucking flag off this website !

Let's talk about Stormont (I know some of you don't like politics, but... ) as far as I know the only poltical party against peace is Ian Paisley's unionist party ! So if I were you, I'd shut it.


Nice words, so beautiful. The hell, if you think you can get peace, I dare suggest you are stupid and damn naive. "The fools, the fools, the fools, they have left us our fenians dead. And while Ireland hold these graves, Ireland unfree shall never be at peace".
This is not only a quotation, it's a realistic statement, there'll be no peace in Ireland until the Brits fuck off. Because there's no justice and no freedom while they 're there and because no Irish man or woman will ever accept to live without justice and freedom.


So I may assume that the Army is composed of young brainless lads who are unable to think for themselves (but this we di know). Moreover, should we then suppose that the order of killing civilians in the Bloody Sunday, shooting-to-kill policies (Let's just mention Gibralta, Mairead Farrell, Danny Mc Cann and Sean Savage), etc, etc, etc, all that are direct orders from Westminster? Grand, may I ask you if you would be ok to bring the case to the European Court and stand as a witness ?

Patrick,
no need to argue, you know how it goes in the Army. They're like young children and they explain things simply, I mean it's just a game. "So you are the good one, in front of you it is the bad one, just shoot to send the fucking bastard to hell. And if you're killed... Click on start again"



Raising this flag is already fighting. I hope for you that you run fast

Now, one more word, Rab,
Don't even dare calling yourself a Republican again. Keep loyal to your Queen and accept the mere fact that you are an enemy to Ireland.
And again one more word,
why do you think you put on a uniform in the Army ? To look handsome ? To recognize your friends in the crowd ? I'll tell you what a uniform is : it means I am no human, I am a soldier. When you put on your uniform, you're not Mr X who has a wife and children, etc... You are just a soldier, like thousands of other soldiers. You mean nothing on your own. If you're killed, it doesn't matter, cause there are thousands of soldiers who are just like you. Moreover, if the uniform helps you to recognize your friends, it also helps your enemy to recognize you. And if you get killed, it's not a murder. I mean in a war you have a right to kill whoever doesn't wear the same uniform as you. And if you're killed, it's not Mr X who dies. It's only a soldier. That is what uniform is : the clear statement that you are not a human, but a fonction.
And a question
Do you sleep well at night?

Slan agat

Charlotte, that flag is the flag of Great Britain rather than the flag of the United Kingdom. It is a flag that represents Britain without Ireland - As seen by the removal of the St. Patrick's cross.



And? Did I ever suggest anything to the contrary? As you've correctly stated - The Republican movement is geared towards peace. That was was my very point - That Fionas represents an extremist and minority view.



I have relatives who stood with Pearse, and who believed his words. They fought under his banner. But his words are almost 90 years old. If the British Army left Ireland there'd be a civil war - There'd be murder and conflict on a scale never seen in 300 years in Ireland.

You talk about "Justice" and "Freedom". Where's the justice in suspending democracy? Where's the freedom is not holding elections?



You can assume whatever you want, but don't even slander some of the finest young men in the world as "brainless".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/s...000/2542719.stm

The Regiment was cleared in a court of law of any wrongdoing, something that the IRA never have to go through.



Have you ever been involved in the Army? For your insulting description I believe not.



Why do you label me as a Monarchist? Because that's what you like to imagine the big-bad-British soldiers as being. I'm far from it. I'm a British Republican. I'm a Catholic. I know it's hard for you grasp the concept - But not all soldiers are "God save the Queen, No Surrender, Flute playing maniacs. If it helps you justice cold-blooded murder then fine, keep your delusions. It's a shame you're so far from the truth.

If wearing a uniform is so important to being part of a conflict; why don't the IRA do it too?

Then raise an English flag in England if you want, but don't raise such a flag in a Republican area, with or without St Patrick's cross. (Not to mention that I dunno how much the Scots and Welsh like this flag)


You're not honouring them much !


No matter how old, they're still true. There would be a civil war you think? I'd say the Orange supporters would try to raise one indeed, but they are a minority and I believe more and more protestants are willing to live hand in hand with Catholics, under an Irish flag if necessary. Your question about Justice and Freedom, I'd just ask the same to the British Government. Don't try to turn the whole thing upside down, we know the truth and you do as well.


And I dare repeating it


The question being "what court?" The European Court said exactly the opposite. "The European Court of Human Rights condemned the killing of three Irish activists by British SAS troops in Gibraltar, a British colony on the southern tip of Spain, in 1988. The Court found that there was no justification for the shooting deaths of Mairead Farrell, Daniel McCann, and Sean Savage. The ruling has added weight to the claim, long made by fighters for Irish freedom, that the British army operated a "shoot-to-kill" policy in the course of its military occupation of Northern Ireland."


I haven't and I thank God for that.


You might not support the Queen, as a soldier, you still fight for her.


Maybe because they are humans

I'd like to make a wee point at this stage if I may.

This is a forum.

If everybody was to agree on everything then there would be no forum

Please read and learn. Just because someone says something you don't agree with it doesn't mean they are wrong. Surely the personal insults are unnecessary.

There are some great people on here with fine points to make, let's not spoil it.

A moderator should be saying this instead of shouting people like me and Rab down all the time.

I don't agree with Rab but I respect his right to express his view.

ok, brits can shoot strangers and its lawful, oppressed by britannia shoot brits, and they are terrorsits...

I would not be suprised if the queen is married with bin Laden




...and in the other hand you say that you just do what the politics told you to do
if they tell you to kill, and you kill, if they tell you to die, you will die...
you live and die for the queen, so aren't you a monarchist?

and finally never knew that britain is a republic


Chucky, a moderator isnt a judge, he can also have his own opinion
he wants to discuss, too

lol!


Rab my friend...you have been told STRAIGHT!

I think you've misunderstood the whole point of the post. Fiona asked me what i'd do in a future British invasion; I replied that i'd do nothing - I used that flag to demonstrate the fact that you can have pride in the Union of the Crowns, but shame in the continued presence in Ireland.



No, you're delibrately avoiding democracy because it weakens the case for a unified Republic. Irrelevant of the British government's record of justice, you must still see the will of the people.



And without any military basis your opinion is all but worthless.



The European system is also the one that you yourself are attacking here: http://www.petitiononline.com/gaedhilg/petition.html . You cannot pick and choose which you can support.



A shame; you might actually begin to understand what goes on in the streets.

You know Rab, me grandmother told me about her hometown was accupied my germans in 1942... The soldier who lived in her family house was a nice guy - he was bringin' medecines, food and other necessary thigs to them, but the locals kept hangin' on the streets, lots of people were arrested and sent to a concentration camps in Germany. Because the occupants were the occupants.
I may guess you are a nice guy, because I know a couple of scottish paratroopers.
But raisin the brits flag at this kind of Forum means:
1. You delare the war here.
2. You are stupid.
3. You are Reebok fan
Keep proudin' somewhere else.
http://cathar.narod.ru/m/arranged/Paddys_I...ritish_Army.mp3


P.S. Fellas from Germany! I did not mean to abuse or to insult you. I know that most of you are deeply regreatin'.

You could at least be decent enough to put a smaller picture you damn soldier !

[quote]I think you've misunderstood the whole point of the post. Fiona asked me what i'd do in a future British invasion; I replied that i'd do nothing - I used that flag to demonstrate the fact that you can have pride in the Union of the Crowns, but shame in the continued presence in Ireland.[/quote]
I don't care about the point of your post. This flag is an insult to us all. No flag belonging to our enemy will be raised proudly in front of us, with or without St patrick's cross

[quote]No, you're delibrately avoiding democracy because it weakens the case for a unified Republic. Irrelevant of the British government's record of justice, you must still see the will of the people. [/quote]
etc etc etc. if you knew me a little more, you wouldn't say that. I'm one of the rare ones here to claim I want freedom through the polls.

[quote]And without any military basis your opinion is all but worthless. [/quote]
And being biased as you are about the Army I dare say your opinion isn't worth much more. Can we believe a soldier saying the Army is great?

[quote]The European system is also the one that you yourself are attacking here: http://www.petitiononline.com/gaedhilg/petition.html . You cannot pick and choose which you can support. [/quote]
Sorry, I believe in the European system and support it fully. This petition that you think is an attack against Europe just asks Gaelic to be an official language. It's not against Europe, it's recognizing Irish is a European language too.

[quote]A shame; you might actually begin to understand what goes on in the streets.[/quote]
So if I get to wear your uniform and kill some civilians in Belfast and Derry, I'll understand what goes on in the streets? Sorry but I think the 14 martyrs of the Bloody Sunday understand it much better than you do.

[quote]No, I don't. I fight for my family and my friends. You might, in your deluded mind, think I do it out of loyalty for the Queen. If that's the disturbed way you wish to think, so be it. But if for once in your life you could see the world without green tinted glasses you might be surprised at what you see.[/quote]
No matter why you fight personally. YOU DO FIGHT FOR THE QUEEN. Your intentions and the facts might be different, but hey you cannot ignore facts.

[quote]Or maybe it's because they're no Army at all. [/quote]
Irish Republican ARMY... mmmh let me think, is it an army....

[quote]No, British soldiers can stop terrorists from killing civilians. Because whatever you think of Gibraltar, those three lives taken, lawfully or not, prevented a scene like this:
(huge picture)[/quote]
You obviously know nothing of what happened in Gibraltar and you still believe the first enquiry (made by the Brits for the Brits). You're really brainwashed in the Army or is it just that they forgot the European Court of Human Rights' enquiry?

[quote]That is what it comes down to; that's the bottom line. Attacking British soldiers benefits nobody - Indeed, conversely, it hurts and affects the very people you claim to represent.[/quote]
Because the Army never done harm, I guess? Oh sorry I always forget they're PROTECTING us.

[quote]I believe in a United Ireland. I do nothing towards that aim. You believe in a United Ireland. You too do nothing towards that aim. [/quote]
You obviously don't believe in it. Not only don't you do anything, but you're going against it. And we might not do much, but at least we try, with our little means.

[quote]But you all believe you are making a contribution. Perhaps it's time you picked up a L85A1 or an AK-47 or even an SLR and got onto the streets. Perhaps that would be for the best.[/quote]
If I were you, I'd not say that. You might tempt some of my friends around here. Personally, I'm not completely disgusted by politics yet, so i'll try this way.

[quote]Because ultimately, the IRA, whatever name you give them, don't just attack British soldiers. They murder civilians. And if you tell me that's a "Necassary casualty of war", i'll leave happy that you have the blood of mothers on your hands. Or not, since you don't actually lift a finger for this movement you claim to care so much for.[/quote]
I don't think any of us believe in killing mothers and that all of us were shocked by the Omagh bombing. But I think that you guys in the Army believe in killing children (Many of the Bloody Sunday victims were aged 17, not to mention all the other examples) : you're responsible for more deaths than you could ever count on your miserable fingers. You and your parents and grandparents and government and all. We won't ever forget the last 800 years. You accuse us of not lifting a finger (and how would you know?) but I accuse you of having lifted yours a bit too much : how many people did you kill thanks to your great Army?


Slan agat

Fully agreeing with Sean on each point.

Good job, Sean !

Slan agat

Any comparison of any event to the holocaust or to the Second World War is a foolish one. That's hundreds of millions of deaths while you obsess over a few dozen. I don't for a moment suggest that those deaths should be tolerate, but do ask you don't embaress yourself with such outrageous claims.

And once more, that flag is British - And was shown in response to a question.



If your "enemy" is the British nation - Then your enemy includes many people who write on this forum.



I'm the first to stand up and critise the Army. But I do so only when it is justified; as opposed to you, who seeks to critise it whenever possible.



If you support it fully, then you'll know that the European Parliament is behind the British government's troop deployment in Northern Ireland, and the Good Friday Agreement.



"Kill some civilians"

More simplistic and unrealistic analysis of the Armed forces. If you put on webbing, if you slung a rifle, if you clipped up your Kevlar and you walked amoung the people who seek to liberate you'd gain an insight. France is a world away from the realities of the Falls Road. The 14 people murdered on Bloody Sunday were not martryrs - They were people protesting against an un-liberal and anti-civil practise. They marched for something they believed it - They didn't DIE because they believed in it - They died because somebody fucked up. You've got a wonderful tendancy to label people - They died; they didn't ask for it. They are not martyrs.



I cannot ignore facts? You're the one who fails to realise that the Queen has no role in Parliament. I fight for the people of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and while I'm sad to say it, Northern Ireland. The Queen has no bearing - You're just using the Monarchy as a way to demonise myself and my regiment.



No, it was an Army 80 years ago - Now it's a couple of blokes with some Libyan and American supplied arms who believe the murder of civilians is as tolerable as the murder of soldiers.



I believe only the sovereignty of a democratically elected and accountable government. The EU is none of these things. You are quite correct that the British enquiry was far from perfect; as you say, it was set up to exonerate the men. But the European court's only job was the satify the needs of the Irish government. Both were equally slanted.



It only promotes the cycle of violence that's ravished Ireland for a hundred years.



It's absoloutely irrelevant if the Army is a genocidal force - It does not excuse the murder of innocent civilians. Once again; you choose to resort to the "For 800 years we've fought you without fear".

If the IRA was a true insurgency, it would target only the military. But it even falls short of that. Your great hero, Bobby Sands, chose to target a furniture shop. That, sadly, sums up the "Army".

RAB, I would personally like to meet you on the street to "Bitch-slap' some sense into you. Sure, I was a soldier myself in the early 70's. The Viet nam War was just as stupid and rediculous as the war in Iraq. I was labeled a 'CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR'.. Do you know what that is? DO YOU??? Of course not you little PUKE! You dont have a clue about standing up for your own rights you little fuck. But just for everyones amusement (you too chucky), I will explain... That means, YES, I am a soldier (I was drafted, if you know what THAT means), But I disagree with WHY we are killing all these people. Sure, Give me a rifle and tell me to shoot civilians just because they have squinty eyes. WRONG!!!! Standing up for myself and for whats RIGHT (not what your Army tells you is right) got me some 'Jail time' but at least I can sleep at night knowing that we shouldn't have been there in the first place.
I did the RIGHT THING!
Now its your turn. You say you want a Unified Ireland. Then tell the Queen to stick her Army up her old saggy arse and fight to get the British Influence the hell out of Eire!

Grand, Dad !
Nothing to add.

And you Rab... well I'll just ignore. Your messages are too long to answer and make no sense at all. I could just keep repeating all I already said.
Now, will you please move your handsome little ass out of this forum, thank you.

Charlotte, I am afraid that the likes of 'Rab' will not go quietly. He is Brainwashed just like all the other little 'TARGETS'. They are like the flies that hover over an animals feces. They havent a clue whats in store for them. They cant read the writing on the wall. They are in for such a BIG surprise.

I'd believe that

EXACTLY! Its called 'Divide and Conquere', but this time we know better

Good answer, brother

Hey! All of you became a relatives to each other! Let me be a far away black sheep cousin, OK?
Arguin' to Rab is a waste of our invaluable time... He is wrong scottish soldier - the paratroopers from Glasgow that I know would prefer a scaffold to demonstrating this poof arse lookin' banner... They are Scotts and they still have a Memory.
Lemme recall you the Old Forum's tradition - IGNORE.
This lad is disturbed that the people from USA, Eire, Finnland, France, Germany, Lithuania and Russia are sure that BA in NI is a sickness that need to be cured. That's good. And I hope it's only a beginning.
I wonder if he can imagine a Moscow, Minsk, St. Peterbourgh voulanteers at Crossmaglen?
By a way - takin a deep look into a Russian history I see that the worst enemy for Russia was the british empire, anyway after Mongols, shifting the Russia's neighbours to war - Turkey, Poland, Sweden. Even Germany.
That is a very unrest kingdom.
What do you think?

Cousin Sean, Welcome back to the Family.

Rab, the title for this post you started is "Why Attack The British Army?".

Having read through your recent posts, the answer is as clear as day.

Sl�n

You survived by hiding in prison while 58,000 died doing their service to their country. You can insult me, but don't ever call yourself a soldier. Your statements insult their memory, and also insult the liberal traditions of America's democracy.

The moral ambiguity of the Vietnam war is nothing to hide behind. You hid away from your nation when it called you. That is nothing to be proud of. Perhaps you would have a better grasp on reality if you had been forced in the Jungle. Perhaps you could appreciate the realities of people wanting your blood spilled instead of saying "Targets". I'll reiterate: If you despised the British Army so much, you'd use your 2nd Amendment rights to get a shotgun and come over to do some damage.



Where is the brainwashing in asking on this forum for answers? I enquire, I ask, I question. You can call me brainwashed if it pleases you, but I'm only here to find answers.



Noel, your comments come as a breath of fresh air. You are quite correct that I have a one sided view of the situation - That is part of the reason I am visting this forum. For Omagh; there have been a number of different investigations, you can dismiss them as British propaganda if you wish, but the main one was not a military inquest. I fully accept your comments in regard to my own faith; and agree that this has been utilised as a tool of the Imperial British ambitious for hundreds of years.



I'm not involved with the Parachute Regiment. And just as an aside; there are presently very few (if any) Paratroopers deployed in Northern Ireland. Once again Sean, if you feel so passionately that you want to kill me, feel free to pick up a firearm and come into the Country.

Russia's worst enemy was the British Empire? Right ... That is, after A. Georgia (Stalin's death toll runs to around 60 million), B. Germany (Hitler's isn't a kick in the pants off 4) and C. The Mongol Empire (Who took control of the pseudo-Nation), D. Japan - Who nicked copious amounts of territory in 1905, E. Napoleon - Who forced the destruction of half the country etc. etc. etc.

What's wrong with you? I've understood that are not involved with the Parachute Regiment when you wrote it the first time. I thought you are Scott, but now I see I was wrong.
I do not feel the need to kill you. I think that a strait-jacket made of brit's banner and listening "God bless queen" 24 hours a day would fit you. Tender care of a nurse. Warhammer box set. Whatever, but keepin' you far from the Respublican forums...
By a way - the firearm should be Kalashnikov of course.

Massonic loges always were happy to harm a Christian countries. And how many members of a brit's goverment were not a massonic involved since 18 century? It's possible to count'em on one palm fingers. OK, two palms.
A. Commies=massonic. Lenin, Trotskiy, Stalin - all of them. And who was payin' Lenin? To travel all around Europe and prepareing the Giant Massacre? Albania? No! Rhodesia? No! Last try...
B. Soviet Union and Germany shoul be... an allies... This document was signed. And only thanks to a british diplomcy Addie turned from La Manche to SU.
C. I wrote - anyway after Mongols. Russians covered all of Europe receiving that strike on themself.
D. Another thanx to a brits diplomacy.
E. The great choice between La Manche or Beresina river again... Don't you wanna say that your diplomates did not take a part in this?
Relax, Rab, we are not stupid Paddies having two interests in our life - moonshine and brits slayin'. We are educated people from all over the world and all of us are sure - brits, slan abhaile.

And we gave you answers that you didn't accept...


during the Iraq war you could see how the bbc manipulates their reports, there you only could see glorios american and british troops (by the way, the british Army was acting against the decision of the EU), and that was far away from the german reports...

Rab, Patrick objected to a war he didn't believe was right, justified or moral.

If the British began shooting civilians in the Six Counties again, what would be your response?

Do as you are told (which makes you a brainless tool of British bureaucracy, and neither a Nationalist nor a Republican as you claim), or would you object and leave the Army (which makes you capable of thinking for yourself, as Patrick was during Vietnam, but which would mean you aren't a "soldier" as you claim)?

Which means more to you? Either way you're lying to us and yourself. If the answer is you would do what you're told, it's pretty clear to me that nothing has changed within the British Army despite what you said before about perceptions having changed. If the answer is that you would leave the army, you are confused and a hypocrite after telling Patrick he is a coward.

And I wonder how your "comrades" would answer? Because as long as there is one single soldier within the Brit Army still willing to open fire against unarmed civilians, there will always be people in Ireland willing to protect them and fight fire with fire.

Sl�n a chairde

You survived by hiding in prison while 58,000 died doing their service to their country. You can insult me, but don't ever call yourself a soldier. Your statements insult their memory, and also insult the liberal traditions of America's democracy.

For starters, I didnt hide in prison, Nor have I ever spent time in prison. I spent time in jail as an Anti-war demonstrator.
I was a soldier in the USAF. The BIG difference between us is that I HAVE MORALS! I can think on my own. I dont need someone to tell me what to wear, who to kill, and who to blame it on. Just do what youre told 'grunt'.
Keep your OVER-SIZED nose OUT of the 'Liberal traditions of American Democracy'. I did not 'hide away' from my nation when it called, I stood up and yelled at the top of my lungs for the killing to STOP. I did my stint for my country. I am not Proud of it, but I did my job. You on the other hand are indeed BRAINWASHED and your replies prove that. Go be a good little Brit Soldier and do as you are told. Dont think on your own, Just stand in line and follow the guy in front of you as you march straight off a cliff.

I think he'd never watched the Movies "Good Morning Vietnam" or "Full Metal Jacket"

hey, little scottish soldier, have you ever seen your comrade's head chopped off by a machine gun, no?

so, I haven't seen such things, too

but I can Imagine that it would be cruel, so stop dreaming those army dreams, its for your own shake, rab!

I've seen what your mate becomes after mortar attack...

yeah, but Rab didn't see it yet...

@Rab:
Nis leugh t-eachdraich, fosgail suil anns gach linn mu dhoigh an Airnm
Stampadh air na croitean seagail 's beathannan og aig gillean Uibhist

FORUM

Why is it that each time someone comes into this forum with a different opinion, you all have to resort to insults.

Don't you realise that you are simply downgrading yourselves.

As already mentioned by Chucky, this is a forum. If there is no difference in opinion then there is no discussion. If there is no discussion then there is no Forum.

What is that you all want? A web site where you can organise your coffe evenings or join your play groups?

I think what RAB has had to say has been really good and interesting. He has stated his opinion loud and clearly. OK you may disagree, but for sake disagree in a sensible manner.

I actually agree with a lot of points that RAB has had to say. Not all, but I will get to them.

I agree that the best solution for a united Ireland, is that through democracy. Ireland will only unite if it�s people want it to unite. At the moment there is a majority in Northern Ireland who do not want to take that route.

I disagree with the points that the BA is condemned to be murderers and terrorists. The BA are sent by Parliament and Parliament currently represents the majority of people living in Northern Ireland.

The BA are not terrorists, as you may know they are doing/have done a great job in re-building Irag, Kosovo etc. They are in many ways a last resort in finding a peace settlement where politicians often fail, in other words they can be described as diplomats. You also have to remember that the BA was also see to be in that position amongst the Catholics in NI, prior to Bloody Sunday.

The terrorists are those who do not agree with the majority and resort to violence.

In a sense the RIRA as they like to be called, are the losers in this war. They lost long ago, when they gave up or were frightened, to take up a new challenge. A challenge through political means, where the interests of all, in Northern Ireland are concerned not just theirs.

They the PIRA should not be promoted as the future for Ireland but as the past. In other words they are of the past, they have not kept up with the times.

I also agree with RAB that the majority of people in Northern Ireland Republican or Unionist, yearn for a peaceful settlement. The problem is that both sides are unwilling, do not trust or feel to proud to give a little to reach some kind of settlement. You can see that from the last election results.

ONE POINT RAB. I do not agree that you can be part of the BA and at the same time be a Republican. When you join the BA you swear your loyalty to the Queen.

If you swore your loyalty to the Queen and you feel that you are a Republican then you are deceiving yourself. That means you would not make a good Republican. You should only do something that you believe in. Unless you plan to use your skills working for the IRA one day I would change my point and say that, that was part of a long-term strategy.

RAB. You joined the BA and you are paid by the BA. If you are sent to NI. I agree that you cannot do anything about it, unless you want to end up in prison etc. But when you are in NI you simply have to accept that you will be a target. It is your job and the job that you chose and the job that pays your bills.

There is no point in you trying to justify your position as a BA member on this forum. It will not get you far. Most guys on this web site are either wanna be activists, or people who live far away (USA, Belgium, France) who have absolutely no idea.

I spent the end of last year in New York for example. I went to the predominantly Irish part of the Bronx. The guys I met there simply do not know. They still believe it is 1916. That is how far out some thjese guys are.

I was saddened by what I saw. Most had never set foot in Ireland. Even more sad, most had past ancestors who may have been Irish, but had long lost their connections.

I left the place thinking that these guys in the Bronx are just guys who want something to believe in. Something that they belong too. Soemthing like culture and history. This is what they simply do not have.

The final decision is with you. You have been to NI you have seen the facts for yourself. More than many on this website. You do not need to take cover from their insults.

If your Republican feelings are stronger than those for the Queen or the U.K. then you do have that oppurtunity to buy yourself out of B.A and do something that you believe in.

I think it is good that you have put your views across. Do continue to do so as it is for me and I believe a few others, refreshing to see another opinion.

thats the subject of the last answers, we tried to tell him, that he cant be a member of the BA and a republican at the same time...



you forgot germany by the way...

we are supporters of a FREE AND UNITED Ireland, and I prefer a peacfull union, and I think all others, too!

like a songtext from Paul McCartney:
>Tell Me How Would You Like It
>If On Your Way To Work
>You Were Stopped By Irish Soliders
>Would You Lie Down Do Nothing
>Would You Give It To ???

And we love Ireland, even if we dont live there!



maybe because they or their forefathers came from England, but they should retreat to Ireland, and don't pollute this beautiful green Isle!

Fionas, I believe you should read Lan's post a little more carefully. He is putting forward a considered opinion rather than making a statement. It's not only more considerate, but it promotes better discussion than screaming for blood does. We can agree, or we can simply agree to disagree without the sweeping insults.



Yes, joining the Army requires either an oath of loyalty (If you believe in God), or an affirmation of loyalty (If you're an Atheist) to the reigning Monarch - ie. The Queen. (If you're an agnostic you're pretty shafted). I don't consider myself a good Republican at all - and have a good laugh about it with my mates.

I suppose my main response would be that my own belief is in the democratic process itself rather than the long term aim of Unification. That is; I believe in a United Ireland through democracy, and it is that democracy that the Army seeks to protect. Does that make any kind of sense?

I completely accept being a target - Like you say, it's part of the job, and ultimately it does pay the bills - Whether it's in Bosnia / Herzogovina, Iraq or the streets of Enniskillen.



I suppose that I find it rather strange that the people here with the strongest views on how to gain Unification are far from any kind of danger. If there was a cause I believed in so blindly, so passionately, I'd be doing everything in my power to get there rather than staying hundreds of miles away. I don't judge anyone for moving away - And respect all of their political views. But I do have to question the difference between what is felt in their hearts and in their heads.



Both of those statements are ones I can relate to greatly. I've got a year and a bit of service still to do. And I'm undecided on whether or not to stay in the Army. I joined up when I was 16 - For the past 3 years this has been the focus of my life. When it comes between financial security and a vague dream of Ireland, I just don't know what I'll do.

Thank you from bringing some sense back to the board Lan, it is very much appreciated.

Call it blind if you want. Our eyes are widely open whereas yours seem definitely closed by your so loved Army's propaganda.
Anyway. What do you think I'm trying to do everyday? Not only do I try to do the little I can from here, but I also keep preparing for my moving over there. I'm a Language, Literature and Civilisation Student (English, wishing it were Irish but hey you take what you can), I'm preparing to get a mention French as a Foreign Language which would allow me to teach French in Ireland so I have a job when I get over there. And I'm gathering info so that I can finish my studies in Ireland and eventually, settle there. All that should take me two more years and a half. This have been my one aim since I am 9 and I've done everything I could for it so far. So question whatever you want except my will to come over !