Hi all!

I've decided to open a separate topic for discussion, because in "No Bush 2004" it's a bit off the point.
As for me, abortion cannot be tolerated at all.
I'm waiting for your opinions!

Dennis

My Opinion.... For starters, Its a womans body, it should be a womans decision. Keeping it or not is still a choice.

if you'll get caught by some Mafia guys, and they do very bad things with you, they torture you,
they put some strange animal into your womp and you have to live with it,
would you think like that, too?

not a nice story,fionas (where the heck did you get that from)!
my opinion is, that the core question of the whole dispute is WHAT IS HUMAN LIFE?
( fragmental questions of this are : does personality make a human being a person? or do basic rights apply for unborn childs? ) (hey, and that even rhymed...copyright by me,got that?)

and i think that's the thing we need strict reglemantations for,laws. eg:

1. abortion is legal
2. before abortion is granted, things have to be considered, such as :
1. origin of the pregnancy (rape etc. )
2. medical circumstances (risk for mother at birth)
3. social status of the mother (teenaged mom,living alone,poverty)

many more factors do play a role in that,but i think that would be a way...

Grettings,
David

Men discussing a woman's decision... how ironical...

Let's take these things in a more personal way : what would YOU do?
As for myself, I wouldn't get abortion in most cases. But there are two cases in which I might think about it twice : if I had been raped and felt unable to love the child and if my child was sick and going to suffer uselessly.

she's right


*SHUTS UP*

<1. abortion is legal
2. before abortion is granted, things have to be considered, such as :
1. origin of the pregnancy (rape etc. )
2. medical circumstances (risk for mother at birth)
3. social status of the mother (teenaged mom,living alone,poverty)>

How would you like the following:

1. Murder is legal
2. Before licence for murder is granted, things have to be considered:
etc.

And applications like:

"When my child was born, I was rich, and after a month I lost all my money and cannot provide for my child. Please grant permission to kill him"
RESOLUTION: APPROVED.

Absurd.

I wouldn't normally, but I had to ....

I would never abort a child .. even if I had been raped. Too many people want children and can't have and I believe it isn't my decision which life deserves a chance and which doesn't. Every child conceived is a gift from God and who I am to take their life in my hands and decide that the gift that God gave wasn't worthy of life. That is my opinion for me .... however ...

If a woman wants to .. I believe they should have the right. It is not my place to judge ... the bible even says .. judge ye not lest ye be judged. It is a personal matter between that woman and her maker. I'm not here to place a judgement only to say that that God gave us free will and I don't think it is mine or anyone elses right to take that away. Everyone will be judged ... it is not my place to do so. I just hope that others think before they do something like that.

Abortion is out of the question...1.5 million abortions happen each year in USA alone! The fact that you can say...yes maybe the mother could MAYBE have health problems if the baby is born, well look at it this way, if the baby is aborted you are guaranteed that at least one person will die! and as for it is the woman's body she should do as she pleases with it...what about all of these drugs that are not legal? why should abortion be legal when it is actually killing another living human being? it is not the woman's body she is harming...it is the unborn child's! and the fact about rape...in america there are 1,500,000 abortions per year, only 1% of them are caused by rape! abortion is a selfish act, if the woman doesnt want the child just put it for adoption!, and as for the child being sick? look at beethoven's mother, she gave birth to 8 children before him, they all were either retarded or blind, but she didnt have an abortion! and look what came out of her, a brilliant man! i suspect out of all of these abortions that have already taken place we may have well just have killed our chance for a cure to cancer! abortion should be illegal that is all there is to it...

the best thing for a woman to do if she doesnt want a child is to keep her legs shut

NorCalGuitarist,
don't do as if you were not involved. Keep your little thing inside your pants and you won't have any child either if you don't want to.
Because that also is a problem. Many abortions happen because you men don't have the guts to stay when you've done somethng stupid. Having sex without contraception, is just as stupid for you as it is for us. There should be more laws to give both more rights and more duties to fathers.

I don't think Beethoven's mother knew anything about echography, did she? Maybe she would have decided something else if she had. And it wouldn't have prevented her from keeping Beethoven.

But I agree that most abortions happen for unjustified reasons : career, adultry, just not feeling like having a child, being stupid enough to have used no contraception, etc... It doesn't mean some didn't really have any other choice.

there is no excuse for murder

and another thing...about beethoven's mother, it isnt what you THINK it is what you KNOW

that is just the thing! it isnt her body it is the child's body! (quote from NorCal)

I cant sit here and listen to this any longer. IT IS THE WOMANS BODY! A WOMAN HAS MORE RIGHTS THAN WHAT YOUR VERSION OF THE BIBLE TELLS YOU!!!!

Okay, I'm not too sure because I dont regularly check up on the happenings in teh Vativan but hasnt The Pope recognized the womans right to abortion if she falls pregnant to rape?

NorCalGuitarist
I'm not finding excuses, I just try to understand. I think understanding is a perfectly christian value, isn't it?

Patrick,
have to disagree on this point. It's not the woman's body : it's the child's one.

ChrisyBhoy,
I doubt that he allowed it, but maybe he said he could forgive it or understand it. Something of the kind. I don't check up either about the Vatican...

Most recently, the Second Vatican Council, presided over by Paul VI, has most severely condemned abortion: "Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes." The same Paul VI, speaking on this subject on many occasions, has not been afraid to declare that this teaching of the Church "has not changed and is unchangeable."

The Catholic Church is opposed to abortion as it believes that destroying any life - even a fertilised egg - is immoral.

There was a 15 year old that had been raped and the doctors and such performed an abortion and the church declared that they had excommunicated themselves with the performace of that said abortion. What the church had to say was ....

"It did not spare a thought to defending the rights of unborn babies, who are people, who have a right to live. The Church wanted to help this young girl, who should have been helped up until the birth of her child, but it also came out and stated the truth.

"And the truth is that human life is inviolable."


easier to read this ..

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...cfaithdocuments

rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html

Patrick, what do you mean by "Your version of the Bible"? I never brought Christianity into this, in fact I didn't bring any religion into this! The Pope would never accept any excuse for abortion, abortion=excommunication, in my opinion the only reason USA allows abortion is because they make money from it, the whole 'woman's body' thing is BS

anybody see this tiny little dots on everywhere on my body? yes, these are goosebumps...i just shudered, when i read "the last stronghold of christianity in europe" what's next?

WE NEED STAKES TO BURN THE ONE AND ONLY FAITH INTO THEM!!! LETS BUILD STAKES!

pictures of the crowd coming up in my mind that storms through the transsylvanian village and mountainside to frankenstein's castle (and yeah, i think iam mixing something up there)...

geez, why would we need "a last stronghold of christianity" while our aim is a tolerant continent of ALL religions and non-religions being able to live peacefully together...
really, i am waiting for somebody like you,dennis, to say a thing like : "all europe is being undermined by muslim terrorists who want to gnaw away at the fundamental christian society and family values with their bombs and their quran "







(everybody else, sorry for the ramble!)

David

German,
come on, no need to get scared. No one is asking to the Inquisition to burn anyone.

About excommunication,
there are now so many reasons to be excommunicated, I wonder if I'm not already??? Excommunication is something I'll never understand I think. On the one hand they praise forgiving, repenting etc, on the other hand, they punish with exclusion. Well well, I remember now, why i never go to Church. I act according to my own conscience. I believe I can do whatever I want, providing it does not harm anyone. And if by some accident, I hurt someone, well I'm sorry, and I'll have an explanation with whoever I see on the day of my death. That's all. So much less trouble like that.

Dennis,
sorry I didn't really follow everything. Why did US leave UNESCO? And is there any reason to be proud of that??

Charlotte, he didn't mention the Inquisition with the words he wrote, but with the meaning of the words...

I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone here if I have offended you. We all have our own beliefs and should respect that. However, Thumping the bible and telling people how they HAVE to live is a little controling dont you think? Contraception doesnt always work. We all make mistakes. Thats what we are suppose to do. Make mistakes and learn from them. I think God is forgiving like that. I agree with Charlotte as far as living my life by MY own conscience. I believe in God, but without all the fire and brimstone stuff. I have an analogy that I would like you to comment on.... Lets say you are an Olympic athelete. You have trained your entire life to achieve the level in which you are at. You find out that even with several methods of contraceptives, you got pregnant. Do you just give up everything you have trained for your entire life? Do you quietly dissapear from the sports world to raise a child that has changed the course of your entire life? A difficult decision to say the least, but still a choice. Good or bad, Right or wrong, You should have the choice for the outcome.

Yes, Patrick. You'd have to give up your sports. My brother had to give up ice-skating (and he was damn good at it !) for less than that.

Fionas, I know he didn't mention it.

Dennis, ok. Then I can kill, have sex, take drugs and go to confession and I'll be ok? Nice to know.

I don't see why God should be harmed when no human is.

I think the UNESCO did many valuable things. There's nothing to be proud of.

I know, I know...
only having a little laugh.

A couple things here ...

First ... sorry to disappoint anyone in here, but I was raised Catholic and I'll hold true to the church teachings. I may 'dabble' in other fields of religious study, but I am, first and foremost, a Catholic. There is a person, from a Catholic family, and because of his parents strong religious convictions, didn't give him up or abort him when everyone else would have thought it would have been justifiable. They raised this boy ... who was a product of rape ... and is now one of the people that is most vehmently fighting for Irish freedom. They loved him as if he was born unto his mum and da and not a product of rape. It isn't exactly known ... between them, family, and a priest what had happened. As they said .. it was not the childs fault what happened and he certainly didn't ask to be born. So, they raised him with love and treated him no different than anyone else and so a republican was born Who knows ... mebbe this man has even more plans to unite Ireland.

Secondly, I'd like to say I'm never ever going to tell someone they shouldn't do it .. I'm in no way advocating the demands that people want to impose on others. I come from a people that has had many demands put on them. I'm in no way saying that someone shouldn't choose whats right for them. It isn't my call to make. I'm no one's judge. I've my own life to live, and I see it as one of the worst things that someone could do under any circumstance, but wouldn't stop me from loving a person who did do it. I couldn't know the condition of one's heart and I can't pass any judgements on those that choose that path. It's just not the path I'd take and feel pretty adamant about it.

By the way .. if you can't tell ... this subject is one that I feel I've to voice me opinion on. I can't have children and so I've often thought about how it is that someone could be handed a gift from God and then turn to destroy it. I may not understand, and don't like the idea .... but I'm trying to. Even if I became pregnant as a result of rape, I don't think I could even give the child up for adoption. I'd want to keep it. Some of the best things have come from some of the most tragic of circumstances.

You're wise, as always, Heather.

Just about the child you were talking about. I never said a child who is a product of rape had to be aborted or could not be raised with love. Yet, if a woman doesn't feel able to love this child and wants to abort, I understand her and everybody should understand her, not approve of it, but understand it.

Ye see Charlotte, my point is that someone has that right, they excercise it and then they could have destroyed the one person that could accomplish those things that the people, and or God wanted them to do. If someone is raped and they feel they could never love that child, then there are those that have been waiting years for the opportunity to raise a child since they, themselves, cannot conceive. They are denied loads of the time because there is such a long waiting list. There is much love out there from people that desperately desire to have young of their own. All I'm saying is that for me, I couldn't ever think that something, anything, a gift that God gave me, and one of his most precious ones at that, should ever be considered for abortion. It is something I feel within me, even without the church because I've been one of those denied that priveledge. How many times I've sat and thought about how much I wanted a child to hold in my arms, show love, loads of love that I have, to. Then there are those that don't love those children, they abort, never knowing what might have been, even for someone else to raise that child, might have been a president, an MP, anyone of importance .. someone that would save someone elses life .. someone that might fight for the reunification of Ireland. Anyone that is born has the greatest potential to be something great. But there's no chance if they're killed before given that chance. Even those children born with congental birth defects. I've seen so many of them touch others hearts and lives in ways that none of us could. There's been babies that have brought families together and saved marriages and they only lived but a day. I just don't feel I could ever deny that right to the child to have life. Each life is so precious to me. I might fight loads of people for Ireland, but I'd never ever harm a child. Sorry if you can't and or won't agree with me as I'm no saying any of this to hurt someone or even try to change their mind about their beliefs .. I'm only saying this because it is how I feel and want you to understand. As much as you want me to understand why someone might, I want you to understand why I think it is wrong. As I've already stated before .... I'd love someone just the same if they did abort a child. I'd never ever try to condone those actions, but I'd not judge someone for it. One person I know did and she was one of my best friends for ages, but she moved to the states and after going to LA, I lost contact with her. I loved her no matter what decision she made, as it is my christian duty to do so, as well as compassion I have for those people that kinda softens my heart. We were called to love everyone, even your enemies. It doesn't take much to love only those that adhere to your point of view and certainly doesn't take much to love someone you sleep with most of the time .. but it does take work to love those that hurt you the most, to love someone that doesn't believe the same ways you do and deffo takes loads to love someone that you've been taught to hate. I struggle with that one and not sure I can ever get past it, but I've had years to build this kind of hate towards certain people, but those that choose to abort children instead of placing them for adoption or keeping them .... I bare no ill will upon them and love them for who they are.

Oh I do understand all that and agree, Heather.

Having a child takes more than 9 months for a woman, it takes her whole life. To men too it should take more than 2 mins...

ok, but if a woman doesnt want the child there is always adoption

Of course, but specially in the case of rape, 9 months is already a hell. That's something you can understand I'm sure.

I can understand...But is killing the child really going to make it all better?

It won't make it better, no. But it's one burden less for some of these women.

The bible talks about 'free will' That makes each and everyone of us responsible for everything we do. If a man decides to walk into a bank with a loaded gun and kills someone while robbing it, that is his choice. If that same man shoots someone that has broken into his house threatening to kill his family, that is also his choice. Bottom line, the man has killed another human being. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that if you kill a person, it was Ok because he was just defending his family but then turn around and crucify him because he robbed a bank for money to buy food for his family.
What if you and your wife have wanted children and that magic day happens when she tells you that she is with child. After going to the Doctor, he tells you both that the pregnancy is going to be fatal to either your wife or the child. One will die. Either you, your wife, or the doctor is going to be responsible for the death of someone.
Some of you do not like my examples, but get over it, Life can be cruel.
What I am trying to say here is that whatever you do in your lifetime, the only one you have to answer to is God.
Here in America, on a Sunday morning, you can drive down the street and see a church on the corner with its congregation singing and rejoiceing that theirs is the ONLY religion and yet a few blocks down the street, there is another church bragging that THEIRS is the only religion, but wait, across the street, there is yet another church with bragging rights. There are many different ways to praise God. But what religion has the right to say "I am right, everyone else is wrong"? Actually, WHO has the right to say that? Its called free will.

That's why I don't think Religion is a valuable argument. But it's different to abort a child because the mother could die, or to abort it for a career. Of course life is cruel and yes, in some cases aborting is a way that seems difficult to avoid. But abortion should always be reserved to these extreme cases and not a choice as easy to make as contraception. Too many people use it this way.

yeah,what charlotte just said is what my point boils down to : abortion is for the extreme cases, cause contraception is so easy. the other day i saw a documentation on tv about a family with 13 kids. asked why they didn't use contraception,the father replied : "nah,it ain't as much fun with a rubber" ....ARGH!!!!

To some religions, there is absolutley NO RESERVATIONS. Abortion is Murder. That is why I gave the examples that I did. To show that you cant have it both ways. They might not like my examples but they are facts of life. Personally, I find it offensive while I am driving, to see billboard signs showing an aborted fetus with some churchs name under it. They dont show warcrime victims pictures on billboards, so TAKE DOWN THE ABORTION billboards.

I hope he was joking.

Patrick,
why not taking up pictures of war victims rather than taking down the abortions' ones?

Good point Charlotte. Why havent the churchs started their ANTI-WAR campaigns?