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PaddyP88
Recently I have been in numerous discussions about sectarianism in Irish and Scottish society.

Most of the comments and discussions where based on the BBC Panorama program about the Old Firm.

Firstly I would like to point out that the problem is a deep cultural and historic problem which has persisted over our nation for the last 800 years, Celtic and Rangers cannot be held responsible for the problems.

Secondly I would like to argue what is meant by Sectarianism and how this word is used.

Please take a couple of minutes to read this, I promise it will be interesting.

I would like to firstly state what sectarianism means by quoting the dictionary definition.

QUOTE
Sectarianism: Being intolerant of the views of other �sect�


Now I would like to condemn the BBC for making a series of declarations on the program about the songs sung and flags flown at Celtic Park.

The program described our National Anthem as being sectarian, yet reading through the lyrics I did fail to see anything about it which could in anyway be �intolerant� to other sections of the community or other communities, as with other songs mentioned like the boys of the old brigade i couldn�t believe what i was viewing.

Unlike the other side of the equation with songs and verses like �Up to our knees in fenian blood, surrender or you�ll die� the songs sang by Irish Catholics at Celtic Park are anything but sectarian, our songs portray freedom and the wishes of a free nation once again.

As with the tricolour, it is quite ironic that an item of peace (green, Ireland; white, Peace; Orange, Ulster Protestants) could be in anyway though to be intolerant.

Secret filming on the program clearly demonstrated Rangers fans making Nazi salutes which later where excused to being the Red hand of Ulster. This secret filming failed to show any misbehaviour from the Celtic terracing.

Celtic fans have been awarded with both FIFA and UEFA BEST SUPPORTERS IN THE WORLD after taking 80,000 supporters to the final in seville without a casualty or arrest.

Celtic and football could do without politics, and I would encourage people as with myself not to sign Irish Republican songs at a football match to make the club wider and open comfortably to all people, I however as a proud Irishman feel great anger and disappointment when my freedom songs, my national anthem and my national flag are being rated of sectarian.

The IRA are a political issue rather than a sectarian or criminal organisation.

I stand against bigotry, racism and sectarianism.

But I would kindly appreciate if people did not rate my thoughts as sectarian.

Views on this issue are welcomed please reply and let me know if I am wrong, you could ad more to my points smile.gif

Thank you for taking the time to read. tongue.gif
Charlotte
Sectarian, maybe, maybe not. But I can understand Rangers fans wouldn't be pleased to hear some of our songs. Songs of Freedom sure, but I doubt they are liked by our British neighbours. Occupiers never like to be called by their true names.
Bill
"The IRA are a political issue rather than a sectarian or criminal organisation."


The IRA are in danger of becoming nothing more than an organized crime syndicate.
Tom McB
This is an easy one for me to reply to as I'm a scottish football fan.
Paddy P88 despises rangers- so do I, their right wing troglodytic fans are a shame on Scottish society. Their preference to see themselves as Scottish and British earns the revulsion of many of us.
Their anti Catholic stupidity, likewise.

But good God I hate Celtic too. Why?- Paddy's post has the essence of it, they don't see themselves as Scottish- I and many other real Scottish football fans would wish that they would take their stadium the f'ck out of our country.

You're right Paddy- I don't think that you're sectarian, just that neither you nor your club have anything to do with Scotland.
Charlotte
They don't consider themselves Scottish and so??? Particularly in soccer this is quite a stupid statement. If you consider that every soccer team has a fair good number of foreign players (If you keep going this way, British clubs will have more French players than British ones!), the importance of nationality in soccer is quite near to zero. That's one point. The second point is, why should they consider themselves Scottish if they're not? It was funded by Irish people, has quite many Irish players and have Irish supporters. The fact that it is located in Scotland is only due to the fact that it was funded by immigrants. But that is only a location matter and all in all, sport is just sport, it's not a fight for nationalist or racist views.
PaddyP88
Before I go any further, I wish to apologise if this topic has in anyway hurt someone, it was in no way my intention.

As I have said before and I�ll repeat it again

QUOTE (PaddyP88 @ March 22 2005,07:02AM)
Celtic and football could do without politics, and I would encourage people as with myself not to sign Irish Republican songs at a football match to make the club wider and open comfortably to all people, I however as a proud Irishman feel great anger and disappointment when my freedom songs, my national anthem and my national flag are being rated of sectarian.


I stand by my comments; I haven�t got a problem keeping these songs out of Celtic Park and football in general.

It would be ignorant, and stupid to suggest that Glasgow Celtic FC is not an Irish club established in Glasgow. And history demonstrates that the club has been there to feed starving Irish Immigrants.

And as Charlotte has kindly pointed out

QUOTE (Charlotte @ March 22 2005, 08:34 PM)
� and all in all, sport is just sport, it's not a fight for nationalist or racist views.

Tom McB
Charlotte plainly you know little about politics and sport.
QUOTE
sport is just sport, it's not a fight for nationalist

Take a wee drive tae catalunya and tell that to the boys at the Camp Nou- Barca are a political and cultural phenomenon- an assertion of Catalan identity.
Plenty of other examples
Do most PSG fans consider themselves French? Damned right, Celtic are an abberation here.


Hurt Paddy- sticks and stones boy- sticks and stones. biggrin.gif The banter's good tongue.gif

Interesting that you bring up the history of the club- that of course shows the sectarian roots of the club.
QUOTE
history demonstrates that the club has been there to feed starving Irish Immigrants

Not to feed all the starving poor- that's sectarian of course.

The point is that the club has yet to move fully into the modern era- wee Fergus, as well as saving the club gave it a nudge in that direction. I know many Celtic fans who see themselves as scots and support scotland - that's a positive change given that they've been here for four generations. Keeping the songs away as Fergus started is a good move.
Wan thing- yer away support- too many unreconstructed cavemen there.

Anyhoo, keep supporting yer team, and if you've got time say a Prayer for mine- Morton.
Charlotte
QUOTE
Charlotte plainly you know little about politics and sport.

QUOTE
sport is just sport, it's not a fight for nationalist

Take a wee drive tae catalunya and tell that to the boys at the Camp Nou- Barca are a political and cultural phenomenon- an assertion of Catalan identity.
Plenty of other examples
Do most PSG fans consider themselves French? Damned right, Celtic are an abberation here.

What I meant is that sport shouldn't be a problem to fight about : should only for the fun. Of course we can take it as an assertion of national pride. But why should you feel offended that the Celtics would assert their Irish pride when you are not that Barca asserts its Catalan one???? As I said, Scotland in this case is merely a location, it does not necessarily make the nationality of the team.
PaddyP88
QUOTE (Tom McB @ Mar 22 2005, 09:47 PM)
Anyhoo, keep supporting yer team, and if you've got time say a Prayer for mine- Morton.


I will dont you worry lol tongue.gif

Thanks you all for replying it is good to see.

QUOTE (Charlotte @ Mar 22 2005, 10:29 PM)
As I said, Scotland in this case is merely a location, it does not necessarily make the nationality of the team.


I still think football is just football, and support Charlotte in this thought.

QUOTE (Tom McB @ Mar 22 2005, 09:47 PM)
Hurt Paddy- sticks and stones boy- sticks and stones.  The banter's good


I never ment to hurt, but after thinking, some hurt is sumtimes good, all i ment is to encourage people (even most of the guilty and the BBC are not reading this) to stop insulting my nation and our songs.

Tiocfaidh Ar La!!

Thank you once again!!

Keep leting me know your opinions on my thought and wether im right or not
Tom McB
Bad posting from me sad.gif
Should have read
QUOTE
Hurt Paddy?- sticks and stones boy- sticks and stones.  The banter's good 

To indicate that I was not hurt- oops biggrin.gif

Charlotte, my lovely,

Barca are catalan in Catalunya- proper in place and thought.
It's f'cking near imperialism for Celtic not be be scots. You don't know about Scots' footie- that's OK. Both Hibernian and Dundee Utd were Irish based teams- both whilst retaining their roots are scottish teams.

This proves I have five great passions in life- learning, my nation, sport, good food and wine and lovely ladies.

And if Mrs McB's reading this- she's the lady laugh.gif
Charlotte
My god Tom, I didn't think you were such a fool. Why the hell should you feel offended that an Irish team should call itself Irish? If you were to move to some other country. Let's say France. And you'd like to meet at times with your country fellows. You meet other Scottish immigrants in Paris and set up a soccer team. The fact that this team is located in Paris doesn't change the fact it was set up by Scottish immigrants. Would you then just abandon your nationality and say it's a Parisian team? If so then you love your Scotland less than I thought.
Tom McB
QUOTE
My god Tom, I didn't think you were such a fool


So everyone who disagrees with you is a fool dry.gif
Nope that's unfair- but I reflects my feeling jist now. blink.gif

Paddy and I know the score here- He doesn't seem to consider me a fool- someone who disagrees perhaps, not a fool.

A more exact anology than your flawed one would be if I moved to La Belle France, set up a football team and 120 years and 5 generations later the a large proportion of the team's supporters, five generations French, still booed the Marseillaise, spray painted anti French slogans on walls and sang songs glorifying the death of French troops.

Does such a situation exist in France, or anywhere in Europe?
PaddyP88
QUOTE
still booed the Marseillaise, spray painted anti French slogans on walls and sang songs glorifying the death of French troops.


about booing maybe, about spraying walls with anti-Scottish slogans in this case, and singing songs about glorifying the death of (In this case) Scottish troops, I am sory (you are not a fool) but i strongly dissagre.

even though now, hoods, neds, chavs (watever you whant to call them) do mistake our history, and slogans are starting to appear, about us signing songs glorifying the death of Scottish troops, sory mate but you got the wrong side of the argument here.

There is no anti-Scottish movement or nothing, but it is not correct to deny that the State of "Northern Ireland" (Even though it pains me to call it like that) has been stablished as...
QUOTE
A Protestant State for the Protestant People

and it's been us, discriminated against for centuries both in Ireland and Scotland

biggrin.gif


As I have said before and I�ll repeat it over and over again
QUOTE (PaddyP88 @ arch 22 2005,07:02AM)
Celtic and football could do without politics, and I would encourage people as with myself not to sign Irish Republican songs at a football match to make the club wider and open comfortably to all people, I however as a proud Irishman feel great anger and disappointment when my freedom songs, my national anthem and my national flag are being rated of sectarian.


may i add, and my history and years of oppression being mocked tongue.gif

I brought this topic in, because I think it is a wide topic, with a variety of points of views which I admire all.

Once again I would like to sincerelly thank you for clearing up some of my doubts and help for providing me with you views on the issue.
Tom McB
It's an excellent topic- as I've said the great majority of Celtic fans are first class lads and lasses. In my department at work there are four season ticket holders for Celtic Park- fine folks. Sadly there is a small majority who let the side down.

Unlike the situation at Ibrox- which brings shame on Rangers and Scotland.


Even the Celtic fans at work menyion this. Their view is that at Celtic Park the stewarding is good and the eejits can't let the side down but at the away games it's different.
Charlotte
QUOTE
Does such a situation exist in France, or anywhere in Europe?

Yes actually. We call it Corsica. smile.gif

QUOTE
So everyone who disagrees with you is a fool

No, but on this particular matter, Tom, I do think you are over reacting and that makes a fool of you. Specially for such an unimportant matter as sports !
Tom McB
QUOTE
Specially for such an unimportant matter as sports !

Wimmin laugh.gif
Paddy- did you see whit she said?

In all seriousness- what is the Curent situation in Corsica? On epart of Europe that gets little reportage in our newspapers.
Charlotte
The situation in Corsica is hard to describe, specially for me who knows not much about this particular issue.
So here is what I know. Corsica is part of France, since when I don't remember. Before that it belonged to other countries. But there are some nationalists on the island who want to be independent. There were bombings, murders, booing of the Marseillaise in stadiums.
But I must say I have no opinion about it.
PaddyP88
QUOTE (Charlotte @ Mar 23 2005, 10:17 PM)
No, but on this particular matter, Tom, I do think you are over reacting and that makes a fool of you. Specially for such an unimportant matter as sports !

He might well be over reacting, however it was me who started this topic, and when, sectarianism and discrimination comes into football (Something which should not happen), no matter what the reason is, it becomes something more than an "such an uninportant matter as sports" lol laugh.gif
Tom McB
Paddy- do you know of TALfanzine?

Also available online.

Really good article on sectarianism
PaddyP88
Thank you Tom McB, no i didnt kno the existance of this website and i do appreciate you pointing it out to me.

it has been a brilliant read, it was actually a chapter from a book, ill have to get my hands on that book smile.gif

QUOTE
Police later admitted that in the two-year period between the two attacks, 38 similar assaults had taken place in the area, all directed at Catholics or those wearing Celtic colours.


QUOTE
However the police do not feel there is a problem. In the second half of 1999, the author was told by Chief Inspector Kenny Scott,  �There is currently nothing to suggest that there is any risk to supporters travelling to and from matches at Celtic Park.� This comment was met with incredulity by the Celtic fans as Bridgeton and Duke Street - both within a mile of Celtic�s ground - are seen as flashpoints for the worst of the violence. Fans find it hard to avoid these parts, as Bridgeton - an area with strong Protestant and Loyalist sympathies - is the nearest train station to the Celtic ground, and Duke Street is also a major transport route. It may be that the success of football club strip merchandising has contributed to the problem, as more people are wearing club strips now, so are easier to identify as a possible target, but it is a sad indictment of the city that a choice of clothing can mark you out for death.


QUOTE
However the worst was to happen to another young Celtic fan, only 250 yards from where Liam had been attacked. 16-year-old Thomas McFadden had watched the game live on TV in an Irish pub close to Hampden Park, where the Cup Final was played. On his way home from the pub Thomas was attacked by three Rangers fans, two men and a woman, and received fatal stab wounds to the chest. He died in the street where he lived. Tragically and ironically his mother had not allowed him to go to the actual match because of her fears of violence. While Thomas lay dying, in another part of the city, Rangers Vice-Chairman Donald Findlay was caught on video singing sectarian songs about being up to his knees in Fenian blood, and other inflammatory songs like the Sash, Follow Follow and the Billy Boys, which is based around a 1930s Glaswegian anti-semite who tried to set up a Scottish Ku Klux Klan. Findlay, a holder of strong views, and one of the Scottish legal establishment�s more colourful figures  with his appearance and strong, Conservative Party-backing views, never made any secret of his loyalty to Rangers. He once said that had never forgiven his mother for giving birth to him on St Patrick�s day, and he always chose to celebrate his birthday on 12 July, which is the celebration of the Battle of the Boyne, which was a battle fought between the Protestant King William and the Catholic King James over the future of Ireland. Findlay has also defended the murderer of Mark Scott and others involved in sectarian attacks, so he was familiar with how deep a problem it was in Scottish society. Also seen in the video are a few Rangers� players but the attention was on Findlay. There was outage from all sides. And not all in condemnation of Findlay. Some football fanzines published names and addresses of people believed to have handed the video over to the press and few people believed it was so Rangers fans could congratulate the video taker on exposing the incident.


QUOTE
Some newspapers said that the fact that Findlay had sung these songs did not mean that he hated Catholics, it just showed that he did not like Celtic Football Club - even though the club is not mentioned in the songs.

Findlay resigned from the Rangers board, pleading that his behaviour had been �an error of judgement� but he has been told by David Murray that he is still welcome at Ibrox.


QUOTE
To make it worse, Scotland tries to pretend there is no problem. When two Leeds United fans were murdered by Turkish fans in 1999, there were pages upon pages covering the incident - what had happened, what the background was, was it hooliganism or something else - no stone was left unturned. In Scotland, after an Old Firm murder, the traditional reporting has been a day�s coverage of the matter and over the next few days appeals for the murderer to be caught alongside pictures of where the person was attacked. There is no examination of the wider causes; no attention is paid to the social background; no-one asks why this is happening. The media - print and non-print - have found themselves in a bind over the matter.


QUOTE
Cara feels that pointing fingers at one group of people is not going to help achieve anything, as there are attitudes on both sides.
Totally agree.

QUOTE (Bernard O�Toole)
�The facts are that most of this so-called �Old Firm hatred and violence� is a one-sided affair. Sure, Celtic supporters have no particular love for their rivals from Rangers and over the years there has always been some hooligan clashes between the supporters. But the latest acts of violence are not the actions of organised groups of hooligans on both sides. They are or at least appear to be the random acts of a group of Rangers� supporters whose hatred of all things to do with Celtic and Ireland knows no bounds.�
Totally agree, and it has to be recognised, (im i no way excusing unproper behaviour from my fellow supporters) but one side, the blue side, is much worse than us wink.gif

QUOTE
Dr Bradley also feels that the term sectarianism is thrown about without any real understanding of its sources and nature in Scotland.  He feels it is a widely abused term, especially in the media, and this can actually lead to sectarian attitudes and judgements.
This was my point from the start, it is a wider issue, than what we are expecting or believing and honestly the word sectarianism is greatly missused.

thanks for that, keep showing me brilliant stuff like this wink.gif
Tom McB
You liked it- good biggrin.gif

The most Intelligent (imho) Celtic fanzine and messageboard is etims
Clicky
PaddyP88
QUOTE (Tom McB @ Mar 26 2005, 03:28 PM)
You liked it- good biggrin.gif

The most Intelligent (imho) Celtic fanzine and messageboard is etims
Clicky
*


i kne that1, thanks anyway!!
Oglaigh
I have read the whole of this topic with great interest. As a lifelong celtic supporter i fully agree with paddy p88 comments. i think that there is no place in sport for violence or sectarianism of any sort whatsoever. However i feel a club should be allowed assert its pride for its background. How is the flying of the tricolor considered to be an act of sectarianism?Flying a flag is a symbol of your roots and the pride you have in them. If celtic fans are not allowed to show their pride of the country they are descendants of, is this not racial discrimintation if rangers fans can fly the flag of their home without comment. In my humble opinion people should be allowed express their pride of their heritage without fear of intimidation.(whether they be celtic fans in scotland or rangers fans in ireland)
Tom McB
Hope this works wacko.gif

Stolen from a Rangers' fan site.
Who said they're not bitter? laugh.gif
PaddyP88
QUOTE (Tom McB @ Mar 29 2005, 03:53 PM)
Hope this works wacko.gif

Stolen from a Rangers' fan site.
Who said they're not bitter? laugh.gif
*


lol laugh.gif nice1 haha

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Tom McB
Paddy will know of this site too. FollowFollow.com is a very popular rangers football site.
This is a sample of the bigoted sectarian drivel that way too many Rangers fans get into,Vermin
vulvabogwadins
How politics and football are related is beyond me. From what I've read of their comments it appears that their political views may end up reflecting poorly on whomever they happen to support. It is certainly rare that I see ignorant drivel that leaves me speechless, particularly those threads which deal with my own country's political system.

I have only two demands when it comes to discussing the politics of another country:
  • possess a basic understanding the nature of said country's electoral system
  • read a national paper so as to be informed - in general - of the current events of the country in question
Failing to accomplish these two minor things will leave you open to being mocked as a pathetic simpleton. One need not be a scholar in the affairs of other nations, but you must - at the very least - be vaguely informed before offering broad criticism. I respect these tenets and I expect others to do so as well.

It is a sad fact that such ignorant opinions are expressed on a daily basis. Unfortunately it is something that one must except when one respects the right of free speech.

Under the heading Obvious News...Tom Has Links For Everything tongue.gif
Observer
Im a Celtic fan and I don't see the problem with singing the songs of freedom. Who's it hurting?.. People just like to complain too much..
PaddyP88
QUOTE (Observer @ Apr 23 2005, 06:56 AM)
Im a Celtic fan and I don't see the problem with singing the songs of freedom.� Who's it hurting?.. People just like to complain too much..
*


Mate nice to see you here!! Thanks for your support.

HAIL!! HAIL!!

I am a 100% Celtic Supporter and a 100% Irish Republican, so please don't take me wrong!!

But I understand that sometimes politics has no place in football.

I have and will continue to sign freedom songs, political, whatever you want to call them.

I do admit and agree that Celtic Park may not be the place, as I believe that there are lots of Celtic supporters which may differ in political views and/or religious believes.

Celtic are an Irish team, and it has to be said with Catholic roots, however it has always been opened to everyone (Mr. Jock Stein, Daniel Fergus McGrain, just to name a few), I do believe supporters should be questioning the fact of this songs being sung.

Mind me, I'll still sign them here in Ireland at Parties, specially Family Celtic/Irish Parties.

What bothers me is not the fact that people may suggest us not to sign our songs at football games, and I will totally respect and support this.

What bothers me is the fact that all our (Irish) songs, our national anthem, our national flag, our heritage, history and roots are being devaluated and labeled as sectarian or biggot. Absolute nonsense.

TIOCFAIDH AR LA
Tom McB
One for paddy-
A wee football song.
laugh.gif
PaddyP88
QUOTE (Tom McB @ Apr 28 2005, 06:57 PM)
One for paddy-
A wee football song.
laugh.gif
*


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Definitely this is now my favourite song!!!!

BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Hes teeth are green!!!" la la la la
PaddyP88
QUOTE (Tom McB @ Apr 28 2005, 06:57 PM)
One for paddy-
A wee football song.
laugh.gif
*


Can we get the lyrics on this website??

Would I be aloud to post them there??

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Everytime I listen to it, I like it more wub.gif
keviebhoy04
Hello there,

I'm new here.. Kevin 22 from Dundee, Scotland. Glasgow Celtic Supporter.

I'm proud to be both Catholtic and Scottish.

Ireland of course is my second team but I'm scottish through and through.
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