As a new member who is morre than a little overwhelmed by the emotion displayed on the site, (I mean it's not like you're trying to survive a hockey strike) one questions the feasibility of a non british stabalization force (al a Bosnia). How would both sides feel about it?

I wouldn't trust them. They might just turn into a new foreign occupation force on the one hand. On the other hand, Britain has I'm afraid, more influence on the UN or whoever would come over. They'd just be auxiliaries of the British forces. Moreover, is stabilization what we really need?

I was thinking more along the lines of the EU. The UN is an outdated idea whose time has passed. As for the need, it would allow the dust to settle.

Aye, a European stabilisation force that would be most fine- a few French, Belgian or German boys going home in body bags would wipe out any remaining support for Sinn Fein/IRA in Europe.

Further to my last, the most often given reason for the BAs presence (in our neck of the woods anyway) is the protection of the people. The most often quoted reason for the continued struggle by the Republicans is the presence of the BA. With an EU (or other international force) in place the BA could leave, and the Republicans could stop fighting. Agreement by both sides regarding the mandate of the force and the duration of it's stay should be easy to reach. Other than the blow to British pride, it appears to be a win/win

It would do no good.
This is only Ireland and Britain's business. And the BA or a UE army, occupiers are still occupiers. We're not going to exchange the Brits for Germans, French, Spanish, etc...
Moreover, I believe you are a bit of an idealist to think that a simple change of soldiers'nationality would change anything to the matter. BA's presence is not the only problem. When Britains gives up all form of power on Irish territory, the problem will be quite near to solved. That means economic and political power as well as military.

An EU force

Has anyone forgotten the great job the Dutch did in Srebrenica?

Lest we forget

I'm am idealist? First time for everything. I would like to think I'm a realist. Everything the two groups have tried has failed. The force in question would not be there for the purposes of occupation, or for any longer than is nessessary, but would allow for the rebuilding of indigenous impartial infrastructure. If, in the future, the force does not fulfill it's mandate, or (inconceivably) refuses to leave, the Republicans have not lost anything. Still don't see the problem.

At least with the Brits, we know the problem, let's not complicate it all.

Charlotte's view is clear- and correct

What's next, an EU force in the Basque Lands, Catalunya, Cueta?

Wake up and smell the coffee Bill

The view that it is an Irish/British problem is insular. The problem has immigrated with the people from both regions. It's difficult to imagine a place in the developed world not at least indirectly tied to NI. I can understand British reluctance to admit a huge failure in domestic (as they see it) policy. But unless the republicans would continue in armed resistance against a force that is there to facilitate the BAs withdrawl and mainain order as the area moves toward direct rule, I still don't see the problem.

If you still don't see the problem, well I don't see what I can do for you.

Charlotte let me try-

I'm old enough to remember the troops going in to save the catholic/nationalist population from the thugs on the "loyalist" side- after the IRA had run away- at the time that it was joked that IRA stood for I Ran Away.

I remember the rage of the loyalists. I remember how the newly formed provos then suckered the Army into the violence of Bloody Sunday and how everything changed.

The same could happen again.

In the same way I remember the division of Cyprus and the UN troops going in- don't see Cyprus being sorted soon.

And why not EU troops into the Basque country?

Wouldn't have put it like that...
Anyway...

Merely trying to point out my frustration at the staus quo. Re-attempting solutions that have failed in the past seems....pointless.

As for the BA being "suckered" into firing on unarmed civilians who were fleeing the area, it seems obvious that better training or smarter soldiers are in order.

Regarding the situation in Cyprus, the UN is still there because both sides want it that way. It is the main industry on the island.

Better training was required- the problem was that the army, who were sent there to prevent ethnic cleansing being perpetrated by the loyalists were not trained in the tactics needed in Urban situations with large numbers of civilians.


I don't have the figures to prove or disprove that but it seems to me that tourism is the main industry.

I think one of the sure fire ways to have a new surge in violence would be to bring in a 'stabalizing' multi-national force. Let's not forget that the root of the Troubles was the occupation. Now you propose a new occupation?

How long would it take for the PIRA to look into some history books and justify a few bombings? How long do you think it would take the loyalists to become enraged at Britain for siding with, in part, the Catholics and take to arms? Have we forgotten the days of the Home Rule debates? The Civil War?

The idea of an international force is on its face ridiculous. Tension alone is no justification for an international invasion of NI. Have a measure of faith in the people, not their leaders, to make sure things get sorted because even in a place where the public's voice is muted by threats of violence, their voice still carries weight. No one can claim to represent the people of Northern Ireland without the people's blessing and in the end both Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams will have to come to the middle from their fringe positions or face the prospect of being marginalized as extremists with no place in the government.

It'll take time, but after 800 years what's 50 more.

To Tom, How long do you think tourism would survive on Cyprus if the UN was'nt there? The Un pumps millions into the island's economy every year.

To Vulva, one is forced to wonder how many more needless deaths another 50 years of the status quo will bring. If Mssrs Paiselt and Adams do not speak for the people why are they the only ones talking?

A popular uprising....love to see it, especially if was bi partisan.

I'm not insinuating a public rising ala Ukraine, merely the influence of public opinion to move leaders to a new position and/or effectively relegate the current leaders to the sidelines.

Did Arafat speak for the Palestinian people or for the extremist fringe of Palastinian society? Often people will 'support' their leaders because they feel they have no other choice. My overall contention remains that Adams and Paisley are far too ensconced in their positions to offer any viable hope for the peace process.

I agree with your overall contention. Where then, does that hope come from? If we are to be condemned to voiceless frustration over the inadequacies of our leadership, what are our choices?

I refuse to believe that the people (whatever their political leanings) are content to march lockstep into irrelevancy by continuing the cycle of violence that has defined their history.

Only the expessed will of the people has managed to force their leaders to the point at which we find ourselves, and only that continued expression will make them move forward from here.

Bill I don't think that the UN contributes a great deal- didn't see any of them on my hols there.

Though there is a large RAF base there.
RAF Akrotiri

A peaceful solution is likely to increase tourism by opening up the north of the island.

Mibbies the continued difficulties over the Sinn Fein/IRA murder of Robert McCartney may have a long term effect of the current impasse
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It will be gratify to see which is the dog and which is the tail and who wags whom. The IRA will lose all credibility if they shield these thugs from justice. There can be no justification for the act and the IRA has to publicly condemn it it the strongest possible terms. If the Sinn Fein is to fend off marginalization, they will have to pressure the IRA to do just that.

There's no problem- Sinn Fein are the IRA.
The mounting pressure will lead to changes , though whether these are permanent or just window dressing.........................

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Disgusting to read that a party which claims to be part of a peace process still can't see that these things are best decided through the rule of law.

Ok, Ok, Ok, enough of that.
You may spend days listing all IRA's crimes, I could also spend years listing British ones. Not to mention that formers are caused by the latters.
It would be a pretty useless list

You're not seriously suggesting that the murder of this poor man is down to Irish history?
It's down to the gangsterism of his killers, and of those who give them the belief that they can kill with impugnity.

You, hundreds of miles away know better than his wife, mother, sisters.
God Almighty Charlotte that's a supreme arrogance.

The McCartney women know the score- they're not putting the pressure on Sinn Fein/IRA for fun.

I've not suggested such a thing. You have certainly noticed I kept the word "crime". But still, I think your list is pointless and shows absolutely nothing in the context of this particular discussion.
As for being miles away, I know that geographically, you're closer than I am, but I also know that one boundary makes it just as far.

The relevance to this discussion is that the recent actions of Sinn Fein/IRA indicate that they are not yet attuned to peace.
As I pointed out earlier any non British force coming to NI would become an IRA target, as Sinnn Fein/IRA has yet to embrace the basics of democracy such as the rule of law.

I don't think the loyalists have never shown any such intention to respect the peace process either. An international force would be a target for both.

And it might even be fair that they should become a target !

Said it earlier Charlotte, that would be no bad thing- would certainly stop the romantic view that too many in Continental Europe have of this situation.

Reminds me of the story about Marshall Foch, when asked how many British troops he required prior to the mobilisation for the first world war. Foch was said to have replied "Just the one, though we would be sure he was killed."

Aye - to repeat myself from earlier in this thread

I have no idea what the IRA is doing at the moment. There are many things, on all sides, that are so hard to understand, for all of us. I have the conviction that the whole thing is going completely mad at the moment. And I believe this is the result of British and Loyalist foolish behavior. I believe none of this would have happened if Trimble hadn't made such a fuss about practically nothing, if Ian Paisley wasn't the mad fascist he is and if Tony Blair wasn't so stupid. When Tony Blair suspended the assembly, I knew it would go mad. I truly believed civil war was going to be taking place soon. I am actually so puzzled by all this, that I fluctuate between two ideas, both foolish. I want the peace process back, though it has proven enough its incapacity to work out. And I want war, with all it means, to shake up the whole damn thing and try to start again on a new basis. For I do not forget that guerilla brought us the South's freedom. If I, a French girl who, though involved in many ways, is, by the mere fact of being foreign, more rational and more distant to the situation than Belfast people, for example, can be ; If I, then, cannot keep my mind rational enough to hold a rational way of thinking and acting, how could those who are actually involved could do so? I must confess I have many times thanked God for not having been born in Northern Ireland : I know what it would have made me, for I am cursed with a passionate soul.
I am concerned at the whole thing and I admit I am scared and lost. I know, though I'm young, what war leads to. Crimes are always more numerous during war, because war knows no justice or law. Because men, freed of justice and law, always show their worst face. I am no exception to this, nor are you, Tom, nor any of us.

Yet, there is one thing I do not forget. No matter how it all happens, I know what kind of an end I want to it. We say that La fin justifie les moyens (the aim justifies the means). This can be discussed, but History has always proven it. For History is written by the winners : the French wrote their version of Joan of Arc's actions and she's a saint, not a fierce soldier ! The American will soon write their version of the war in Iraq : they've brought freedom and democracy there ! and so on. As long as Britain is occupying Ireland, the world will call the IRA terrorists and criminals. Let Ireland be free at last, they will be heroes forever. So are now called the French resistants of World War II. It all depends on the end. Morality never had anything to do in it. Let History decide whether I'm a fanatic or just a hopeful girl. As for me, I'll just let it go, for I'm tired of justifying everything. Anyway, it is pointless and won't ever make any difference.

Charlotte, The brits are in their glory with confusion. The more we want to get down to basics and remove the 'Influence', the more they want to stir things up. I have yet to speak to a loyalist or anyone from the ba that is willing to talk basics.
Basics like what the fighting is REALLY about. Seems easier for them to sidetrack to blame than to admit fault. Quite typical actually.

Dear me Patrick, well off the mark. British newspapers of the liberal left, newspapers which support Irish self determination, are in despair at Sinn Fein/IRA's inability to adapt to peace.
Check it out
We come at this from different routes, you want to remove the "influence", I want a just solution. It's worth remembering that the loyalists have been in NI longer than your descendants have been in America. Would a just solution for Native Americans involve removing the white mans' influence from America or in giving the Indian nations fair access to jobs, lands etc.
I am reminded of the American lady who asked Churchill in 1947, prior to Independence for India, "Well Mr Churchill, what will you do with your Indians?" to which the great man replied " Nothing as bad as you did to your Indians"


No argument- that is the expanation for Mr McCartney's brutal murder. Those men are guilty but so are those in Sinn Fein/IRA who have continued a wartime mentality after signing the GFA.
Aye Paisley too- he's vermin, there's not a spot in hell hot enough for him, sadly he has come to represent the mainstrean Unionists as the moderate voices have lost credibility for signing the GFA which was then seen not to bind Sinn Fein/IRA into a lasting peace.

Blaming the British (Not just their government) to justify criminal acts is counter productive. To blame them for the drunken atrocity perpetrated by a very small number of thugs allows the loyalist movement to continue to stall and obstruct the process. As distasteful as the Republicans may find it, the only road back to respectability is the high road. All people involved in the murder, theose who comitted it and any accessories after the fact, should face justice. Any attempt by the Republican movement to shield them from the law of the land or rationalize any action that would protect them, further erodes their already shaky credibility.

These people need to stand trial, under public scrutiny where the facts of the case are debated on their merit and where a fair, defensible determination of there guilt or innosence can be made.

The Irish people who support the Republican cause deserve to have their loyalty reciprocated.

I couldn't agree more, Bill.

The fact is that Republicans of all stripes must put aside their romantic view of IRA/Sinn Fein and come to grips with the political realities of the situation. No group who's ideas of jurisprudence are a law unto themselves should be allowed to circumvent the hopes and dreams of peace. As events progress we are seeing the PIRA for what it is, a band of thugs who's power and influence is intertwined with echo-chamber historical perceptions (and misperceptions).

The citizens of NI are now under the oppressive thumb of a new authoritarian regime, that of the ever polarized paramilitary oranazations of each side. If it is truly the contention of these who claim to speak for the cause that they wish to see a united Ireland, it is time that they show their mettle. Far more courageous is the man who fights his battles with intellect and political craft than he who derives his support from behind the barrel of a gun.

The IRA might be whatever you think, there is ONE fact about them that nobody can ever deny, loyalist, republican, Brit or Irish :
Nothing - and I mean NOTHING - can ever be done without them.

Even the normally acquiescent American press can smell the rot at the heart of Sinn Fein/IRA
Chicago Tribune

Charlotte, any reading of History shows that groups come and go, unless Sinn Fein/IRA reform they may be consigned to the dustbin of history. Republicanism will survive, they may die as a political force and survive only as an Irish Mafia.

The courageous family of Mr McCartney show that the support of the nationalist community is, as we say in Scotland, disappearing like snow off a dyke.
Sinn Fein/IRA must reform or die.

If groups come and go, then another will replace the IRA.

I'd add one thing. Wherever they lose support, they win another somewhere else. And Blair and Paisley's attitudes are only helping it. I'm never so much for the IRA than when everyone blames them, and I believe I'm not the only one.

You're wrong to blame Blair- he has no desire to hang on to NI, the stupidity and gangsterism of Sinn Fein/IRA are what is thwarting his plan to disengage.

Your first post makes my point that anything can be done without Sinn Fein/IRA, nationalism will find a more political route.

The matter with Blair is he does not understand anything. He kept acting like a fool in NI. I'm not saying his intentions were wrong, just that without his foolish acts, we wouldn't be at such a point now. Not to mention Trimble and of course Paisley.
As for the IRA, I don't know what they're doing, I just keep hoping it is for the best. Or maybe they're just as exasperated as I am. I'll tell you one thing. IRA, it's not just three letters. It's men and women who have feelings. And feelings, passions actually, is the one thing that count. Cause that's the one thing that makes one go mad. Don't hurt people's feelings and they won't be doing anything against you. Kick a wolfe, it'll bite. Humans are just the same. If the Brits had understood that, the day they first invaded Ireland, they'd have gone into their damn boats right back to England. That's exactly what happens with the IRA. Paisley made them angry, and now they will be acting madly.
S�me le vent, tu r�colteras la temp�te.

PS : in that sense, the IRA does represent the nation, even if it might just be the worst of it : its darkest aspects, its anger, and its vengeance.
As I think about it, did you know the Ira means anger in Latin?

Now now- If you check my info you will know that I am of an age to have studied Latin.
Ira, anger or wroth.

The righteous anger of those who first saw Sinn Fein/IRA as liberators but now see gangsters.

BTW Charlotte please don't use the term Brit, it is only used by fools, and you are plainly no fool.
The invasion of Ireland was carried out by the succesors of William the Bastard- the Normans, the French if you will. Booger all to do with the Britons.

Your age doesn't necessarily means you've studied Latin. Anyway it was not compulsory in my school, so your age doesn't mean anything. Moreover, I didn't mean to inform, just to remark a fact that has always attracted me.
As for the term "Brit" I use it merely as a short way to say British, though there muyst some contempt somewhere in my mind.

And as regards "William the Bastard", Norman, French, British, it doesn't make any difference. At the time, all royals were a bit French, Spanish, German, Dutch, and whatever. It is not in the name of France he invaded Ireland. And it is not France that occupies Ireland now. Yet if it were, how much I'd hate France! And it wouldn't be much of an effort as I have no love of any kind for it. France is merely the country I was born in and wish to leave as soon as possible, nothing else.
And I find it quite funny that people would keep use this as an argument : France is not a better country that England. And Corsica, Britanny, Euskadi, etc... I do know, and I don't like France any more than Britain.

FYO- latin was a compulsory subject in Scottish education for those of my age who went to Higher schools.

IRA- indeed anger, a deadly sin, like slaughtering a man as you would butcher a hog and then terrifying the witnesses into silence- you're correct it does fit.

You use the word Brit with contempt? Shame on you, that's about as rational as the racist rantings of the FN.

And the final argument- you're missing the point, Britain does not occupy NI, any more than Britain occupies Scotland or Wales.
Self determination of peoples matters, if the majority in NI wish to leave Britain then we will respect their wishes.
Europe is full of such examples- Schleswig Holstein, Alsace and Lorraine, the Sudetenland, East Prussia. We cannot undo the injustices of the past we can only seek just and fair solutions to what we face now.

Anger, a deadly sin, might be, but still : a human emotion.
As for the word Brit, I guess it's on purpose that you've read only half of the sentence I had written. But still, maybe contempt was not the word I meant. Resentment might be better.
As for your last argument. I will not enter the yes, no, yes, no, discussion. We may discuss for years what does "the people" means in such a case.

Part of the difficulty is that Sinn/Fein IRA has yet to realise that the post 9/11 world is not congenial for terrorists.
Some thoughts from America

Latest effects of McCartney murder
Yes anger is a human emotion Charlotte- venting that anger by butchering a man as you would butcher a hog- that's inhuman.

Covering it up- that shows that Sinn Fein/IRA have no place in any peace process.

I trust the organisation. Even though, as in every organisation, there are some unworthy members.

No, that won't wash. Adams, McGuiness or Mitchell McLaughlin could have come out and said that Sinn Fein/IRA want all witnesses to go to the police, they haven't said this and they are unlikely to.
As I said, they are the new Mafia- enforcing through Omerta.

Alright. I actually don't see the point in continuing to argue : it would only get us to yes, no, yes, no discussion. So let's just say we disagree.
End of discussion, as far as I'm concerned anyway.