Hey everyone. I ran into this site a couple of days ago while researching some Irish tunes...I am an American with a great deal of interest in Ireland. I have friends and family there, and of course some Irish ancestry too...like almost everyone else in the USA! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I have been reading some of these threads with great interest. I am trying to understand the terminology here...unionists, loyalists, etc...so bear with me if I get confused! I love history and discussing politics, and I'd love to learn more about the situation in the land of my forefathers.

Anyway, thought I'd say hi! Thanks for putting together this cool forum!

Everyone can help. Tell everyone you know or meet what the REAL fighting in Ireland is about. Not just what Uncle Sam wants us to hear. There are millions of Irish-Americans in the USA. If everyone knew the truth, It could make a huge impact on what actually goes on in Ireland.

Patrick said : Everyone can help. Tell everyone you know or meet what the REAL fighting in Ireland is about. Not just what Uncle Sam wants us to hear. There are millions of Irish-Americans in the USA. If everyone knew the truth, It could make a huge impact on what actually goes on in Ireland.


Patrick, I mean no disrespect here, but I don't understand the situation enough to go around soliciting the help of other Americans. Until I fully understand "the truth" of it, I would never intrude upon this matter in such a way. You are right, it COULD have a huge impact on what actually goes on there. What I am afraid of is, that if I did such a thing, I might be the reason for more deaths and violence.

I have a question for you:

What has Uncle Sam told me that qualifies as "what I wanted to hear"? To be honest, I don't hear much one way or the other from my government, with regards to Ireland.

Aye Firinne, tis loads of information to digest. You might find yourself in a lifetime of trying to sort through all the information. I know of people older than me that still haven't sorted it all out yet. I've asked some Americans what their system is all about, the politics, the judicial system and the laws that govern the country and they've no idea what goes on inside their own country. Maybe Americans have a way of learning other countries structures because they pay closer attention to it because it is not their own. It is interesting to say the very least.

The thing is, you said that since you're an American you don't seem to feel you've really any right to tell the Irish what to do about the situation, but the Irish have no better idea what to do in order to resolve the problems either. Fighting isn't working and voting isn't working so there has to be another way of doing things that is lost on most of our people. Also, I understand the gov there mostly avoids saying anything about Ireland in the media, or the UK for that matter unless it's to do with certain political figures in English Parliament. It isn't the fault of the pupblic at all when they remain ignorant because they don't see at the news or any shows exactly what it's all about, but you're right on one fact ... it isn't a religious war, as it hasn't been for ages. It is just about setting some unjustices right. I know the people in Ireland, Northern Ireland also, today weren't the ones that had to go through the centuries of warfare to try to retain their rights, as most of those rights were given back (to a certain degree). Even if there were foreign nations that had invaded before, the Brits are the ones that are still in Ireland. They are the ones with the military presence that hasn't moved on.

The thing is, people that want Ireland to be reunited still see hope, they still see a light at the end of the tunnel. If it worked to get the Republic, then surely it will work again for the North. The only way it's going to happen is if the majority of people will speak. I couldn't tell you how many people aren't letting their voices be heard just on intimidation at the ballot box alone. A vote could possibly end some of the conflict, but if Setanta looked at the GFA a bit more closely, if the majority of people at the North voted for them to leave, they only agreed to listen, they never agreed they would. Even if every single Irishman went to vote and said Brits out, they would review it and then chuck it like they have everything else. So the people that would vote don't see any reason to because even if their voted mattered and they tried to be heard, unltimately they'd still not honour that and would stay anyhoo. I see this all from many angles and isn't easy to sit back and watch things as they seem to be changing, but sometimes change is good and perhaps we're closer to resolving issues than we've ever been, or perhaps we've just taken the biggest step backwards in history. Who knows at this point, not me.

Speculation is good in the sense that you can see a possible outcome, but it is bad in the sense that nothing is set in stone and we could guess all day and night long but still have no real idea wtf's going to happen. I don't think in my lifetime we'll ever see a unified Ireland, and nor do I think it will happen in our childrens lifetimes. It is a sad case to see how things have gone. I know Setanta doesn't like any of the organisations, but for me it's a different story. When I've had run ins before with certain people, it wasn't the RUC (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) or any British soldier that had my back. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons why I don't think they're there to protect is what they did to me when I was only a teenager. So, for me, I not only seen the IRA as a way to be protected, but also as a means to get things done that wasn't able to be done at the ballot box, such as Setanta suggests. People can love me or hate me for what I believe, but ultimately, all of our situations are different and we've all had different experiences which helped shaped us into the people we are today, for good or ill. Nobody has to agree with me, and nobody even has to like me, but as long as there is life and breath in me, I'll always fight, even if by words, for the Unification of Ireland (A Nation Once Again).

Newsflash: things have drastically changed. The IRA announced a ceasefire and, in general, have stuck more or less to this. For the last ten years or so, I have been able to walk around the streets of Belfast without even seeing a cop or a soldier. I can go into a store without a security person searching through my shopping bags and frisking me as I enter. I can even actually walk into the City Centre without fear of a bomb exploding.




When you say "many IRA at the States".. do you mean there are many members of the IRA in the States..?




That sound particularly onimous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Fighting certainly isn't doing anything other than polarising our people.

The voting though, is working just fine. Northern Ireland is part of a democracy.




Questions for you: What rights are now still being with-held, to any degree, from those people of the Republic of Ireland. What rights are now still being with-held, to any degree, from those people of Northern Ireland.

The answer for both is: none.




The Gaels are still here. The Normans are still here. The other Celts are still here. The Vikings are still here. Nobody else invaded.

As for the Brits being the ones still in Ireland.. that's because they have always been in Ireland. The military presence is that of the government which they democratically elect to have represent them - it is the army of the people.




"Re-united"? The only time Ireland was ever united in the first place was as part of the United Kingdom. There is a movement in Dublin which supports just such an idea. Are you willing to see Ireland re-united as part of the UK again?



I can tell you this much: I haven't heard of this kind of intimidation since the 1980s. When it did occur, there had been intimidation on both sides. Most often, when intimidation did occur, it was against nationalists from the IRA.

More over, many private opinion polls throughout the decades have indicated that a substantial number of Roman Catholics support Northern Ireland remaining in the UK, despite the political parties they individually vote for. The results of such opinion polls have suggested that anywhere from about 20% to 32% of Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland support it remaining in the UK. This is quite a true reflection from my own experience of Roman Catholics here. When it comes to non-Roman Catholics, the percentage of respondants that supported NI remaining in the UK varied from 92% to 98%.




I looked at the GFA quite closely when I voted in favour of it. The GFA mentions NOTHING whatsoever about getting anyone to leave. The GFA states that, should the majority of people in NI vote to split from the UK and join with the Republic of Ireland, then measures would be put into place to ensure that this happened. It is fundamentally democratic, and I happen to strongly support this notion. So therefore, should a majority of people in NI ever vote that it should join with the Republic, I would accept the decision. I would still be a unionist though. I would still support the unionist ideology.




Who would do this? Nobody has the power to do this. The worst that could happen would be that loyalists wouldn't accept the democratic decision, and that there would be widespread violence.




I suggest that if you have any complaints about either the RUC or the British Army, you take it to a solicitor, and have them compensate you appropriately. I sure as hell would.

Well, Setanta, the thing is there has been loads of the IRA that have come to the states. I, myself, couldn't tell you why lol The only thing I have to say to the ominous statement was that it wasn't meant to be. I'm only saying that they've said no more fighting, to which you've also said they've pretty much stuck to it so far, and i was agreeing. I can hope that there's going to be a peaceful resolution and hope that things go the way the majority of people want. I just don't have much faith in the whole process. I'm sorry for my lack of enthusiasm, for my lack of faith in all this, but I've seen enough to know I trust no one and no one's word really means shit to me, even those I love and support also. It's really odd to say that, but it's kinda like having someone in your family that you really don't trust. You love them, and you'd do anything in the world for them, but you are never sure what they say is actually how things are.

Things have changed drastically. I can say i still see soldiers, I still hear the chooppers going overhead (even prevents me from being able to hear when I'm at the mobile), I might not be frisked when entering into a shoppiong centre and such, but there's still times when I'm stopped as I'm driving and am searched. It is true though that it isn't nearly as bad as it used to be in that sense. I don't fear bombs and such when I walk into places, but to say things don't happen, that's foolishness. In the last couple of years I've tried to stay away as much as possible. I can't walk down the streets close to B/more without a few problems. Most of the time I'm ok, but there's other times when you're just never so sure things are going to be ok. You see them at the other side of the street and they're matching your pace, whether fast or slow ... they turn the same corners and such and you just know what's going to happen if you stay where they can get at you. It still happens and it will continue to happen. Everything isn't all rosey ... it's not all fine n dandy, but it is much much better than it was before. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's certainly true for the family of Robert McCartney for example. I apologise for taking you up wrong in what you said. I have heard many, many things which I have perceived as kind of threats and triumphalism from supporters of the IRA. Unionists do not completely trust the IRA either... and why should they? By the same token, I can appreciate that many nationalists and republicans do not completely trust either Unionists or the British government.

I have more faith in this process, despite my misgivings, and despite the dragging of feet - from both sides - which has made the process so slow. But I also understand that change has to be affected slowly. Otherwise you surely run the risk of angering one side or the other, and we're back to Square One as quick as you can say, "Tap o' the mornin' to ya!"




There is still the occassional checkpoint after certain events or if certain Intelligence has been gathered. For example, after the Omagh bombing, there were army checkpoints put in place. After Loyalist rioting there have been checkpoints put in place. But the presence of soldiers and checkpoints is much diminished. I still hear the helicopters right over my own house. Turning the TV up a bit louder usually helps drown it out though.




The same thing happens to me.. by my 'own side' even! And I hate them all every bit as you seem to. And I've known some of these same type of people socially. They aren't willing to listen. They claim they are right.. "because we are"!

I don't pretend that things are rosy, but I do believe that the vast majority of the people are sick and tired of it all, and just want to live normally. I know that the people across the road from me in a Republican or Roman Catholic enclave are just as sick of their 'own' extremists as the people on my side of the street are of their 'own' extremists.

Things are better for everyone. In the first year of the IRA ceasefire, both foreign investment and tourism in Northern Ireland increased by something like 100%.. and continues to increase. Sinn F�in's efforts to bring the IRA into the democratic and non-violent process has paid off and has been appreciated by the fact that ever since the ceasefire, they have steadily increased in the electorial support they get. The Ulster Unionist Party, which claimed they'd never talk to terrorists (the IRA) or their representatives (Sinn F�in) have been in government with them and they have even cracked jokes during Assembly sessions with eachother.

So, we have our country back? We are no longer a part of the UK? (and that wasn't always so, not until the English came in and took our country away from us completely without any chance of resolution unto ourselves). We govern ourselves? All those rights they took away as in practicing of our faith were given back. The point I was trying to make is that we still don't have the right to be our own country like we were. Ireland was NOT always a part of the UK, only since England made it so. Yes, there were people here before them that were fighting for power also, but the English were the ones that ultimately took control over Ireland and did all they did to our people. I say those rights haven't been given back only because we are still a part of the UK and so subject to their laws and the rights they give people. That part you'll never be able to change my mind on. As for the Republic of Ireland ... they have more of their own rights than we do as northerners. ffs we can't even have our St Patricks Day or our Easter Parades without loads of bother. Odd that the orangies, no matter what, always get to have theirs and have the police to protect them. Police are with them .. but when we have ours ... erm ... they're there .. but not in the capacity to help our people be able to have their parade without incident .. they're only there to monitor and if it gets too far outta hand, then they'll step in. Also .. seen a few riots and such that they got into the middle of .. and you say the last ten years have been better ... but only a couple years ago there was a funeral in which a rifle was put to a priests head and told to stop ... people there to mourn the passing of their loved one was stoned and such ... supposed you don't remember incidents such as that eh? or postmen being shot while delivery posts?

I keep reiterating the fact that there is much intimidation and you don't seem to think so. You see it your way and I'll see it mine. But I still think you should go vote with me once just to see (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There are some Roman Catholics that want to see Northern Ireland remain a part of the UK, just as there are Prodestants that feel that we should unite both the north and the south and the brits should be out.

The GFA does mention soldiers and such leaving. But that isn't what I meant. shees .. I'm knackered and this is only from responding at a forum ... and we're travelling in a circle here.

I will say that I've talked to a mate of mine that is a solicitor and he told me any time I wished to I could do something about what happened, but there's .. erm ... extenuating circumstances. Let's just say all that I'm going to get I've already got, and anything else would be just cause more problems ... really difficult to respond to that without actually responding (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif) They were part of who I had forgiven for what happened, only thing is .. there's so much left that can never be sorted where that was concerned. So I deal with it in my own, erm, crazy way.

This is my last post for the night .. we both hate how things go sometimes, we both hate extremists in that sense. Things are much better as a whole than what they used to be. We both agree to work at things on a political basis, a peaceful basis. We both are tired of the death and mayhem that is the north and want to be able to live in peace. I don't feel the need to go over those points we diagree on, those points that I don't think we'll ever sway each other's minds about. No two people think the same or feel the same and nor do we think or feel the same way about those things we think about. Just as much as I think I'm right, there you are to say how right you are. It's a never ending battle that will probably never be resolved, but none the less we continue to debate our opinions. It's healthier to argue about it in here than it is to resolve the issue in the streets, least it's loads less painful (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Anyhoo ... long life and health to you and see you round the forum (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We never lost our country. We are still a part of the UK. We governed ourselves until the IRA made it nigh on impossible. We have freedom of worship in this country.




When was this?




I'm not sure about that. They are a democracy and so are we. You might as well argue that the USA have more rights than we do.




You forgot to mention the Orange parades. We can't even have them without loads of bother either.

As for Patrick's Day, there is usually very little trouble. Most Easter Rising parades pass off peacefully too.




The police have a duty to help organise the traffic on the route for any parade that has been passed as being legal.




Yeah - I can see how loads of Republicans .. the kind of people who like to kill policemen ... would just love to see their parades surrounded by these policemen and women that they love so dearly!




Not recently, no.

As for this Priest - when and where was this please? I'm sure a story like that would have been in the news. Who held a rifle to the Priest's head? What was the Priest's name? Who was being buried?




You are presently living in a mostly republican area.. correct? So any intimidation at your local polling station would only be carried out by .. republicans. However... I've not seen nor heard of any of this type of intimidation for at least a decade.. probably longer. If there was any of it going on, I would hear about it.




Which Brits? I'm not sure you defined what you meant by Brits. You see, by definition, I am a Brit... because I am British. Brit is a shortening of the word British.

So - are you saying that these people feel that I should "be out" of my own land?

What about the few Protestants who do desire a 32-county Republic? Should they not also leave? In fact, come to think of it, the whole 1.7 million population of Northern Ireland .. should they not leave being, as they are, all Brits..?

To put it simply: who do you feel should "be out" of Northern Ireland?

According to various opinion polls taken throughout the decades, somewhere between 20% and 32% of Roman Catholics want NI to remain in the UK. These same opinion polls suggest that anywhere between 2% and 8% of those of Protestant backgrounds are supportive of a 32-county Republic in Ireland.




I appreciate that things may be more complex than they appear. And I appreciate that you may not necessarily want to go into details of certain events in your life (after.. you don't know who I am.. or who I could be). But my suggestion about going to a solictor etc wasn't meant as an off-hand remark. I wish you the best in dealing with whatever type of event this was, and in getting over it as best you can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Thanks for this post WID. Its nice to reflect on what we have in common. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'd like to add something which I believe will add to a more peaceful and mature Northern Ireland (for as long as it exists). That is, I believe that the political parties should do FAR more to appeal to the 'other side'. Republicans and Nationalists should appeal more strongly for the votes of those who are traditionally unionist. Unionists should appeal more strongly to those who have been traditionally nationalist. We should get round this religious barrier which the media has been partly responsible for creating. Back before the Troubles began in earnest, the Unionit Party had attracted a substantial vote from those who were traditionally Roman Catholic. My own mother even attended the 11th Night bonfires with many of her Roman Catholic friends.

The Battle of the Boyne in 1690, Easter 1916 and the celebration of the coming of Christianity through Patrick are all parts of our shared history and heritage. I believe they should all be celebrated as such.

Thanks again for your thoughts and arguments, and for taking the time to read what I have to say, and to respond to it all. Debate is healthy, whether it gets heated or not. And people don't have to end up feeling like mortal enemies just because of a difference of opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, considering that Ireland hadn't become a part of the UK, by the Act of Union, in 1801 (1800 is when it was created, but didn't go into effect until 1 Jan 1801), I don't think you could say that Ireland has always been a part of the UK (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) FFS ... when they passed that act ... it said that Ireland was to be joined to Great Britain into a single kingdom. The Dublin parliament was abolished then. Ireland was then represented at Westminister by 132 and they were ALL anglicans ... so much for fairness eh? Even though Ireland was still mostly catholic, they forced it to be recognised as the Anglican church being our official church. Ireland was to keep a separate Exchequer and was to be responsible for two-seventeenths of the general expense of the United Kingdom. No Catholics were to be allowed to hold public office, and no Catholic Emancipation.

It was Ireland before them and one day, God willing, should be Ireland once again. In actuality, it wasn't the IRA that made things impossible. First, you have to remember it was the United Irishmen. I'm sure you've heard of Theobald Wolfe Tone and Lord Edward Fitzgerald. They wanted to break that connection that Ireland had with England and assert our independance. It was to unite all Irishman, despite their choice of church, to bring all protestant and catholics together.

There wasn't a right to vote at that time if you were catholic. they had to pass the Catholic Relief Act in order for our people to regain some of their rights to vote, and yet they were still told they couldn't ever take a seat in Parliament. That was really nice of them to give us the right to vote for whichever one was the lesser of evils. I mean we could vote but only for those that were Protestant. Earl Fitzwilliams tried to get equality for our Roman Catholic churchs, but he was called out of office so to speak and to the disgrace of the King. So, even those that did fight for us ended up in the same boat as we did.

And back to the matter of the parades .... the Orangies get to march without much a bother as in PC ... but the bother comes in with those of us who feel their parades, through or BY our naighbourhoods are completely unecessary. I don't know about everyone else, but if someone took my home, my land and put me through so much hell, and then turned around and marched close to my house so as an gesture, then I'm sure I'd find a way to stop them. The St. Patricks Days parade has had many unionists and protestants attend, I've even known a few. It is a part of our heritage and a part of our culture, which existed before England got handed Ireland and took control and abolished catholicism at one time. The Easter Parades are a bit different, just a bit .. but still .. we should be allowed to honour our dead in peace. The Orangies do it their way and we do it ours, but they've more allowances than we do. Which traditions should be held first and foremost .... those of the ages ... or only those of a newer age that has caused so much hatred and biggotry?

Now why would republicans love the police? I don't suppose you've seen the way our people have been treated by them .. how deaths of our catholics went uninvestigated while those of unionists and protestants were always invetigated. Also, those lovely wee interrogation centres left little to be desired. We could go on with how the police treated our people (loads of them innocent as well) but you'll only say how the republicans did the same. I can only say that republicans aren't all bad .. and yes there were some that did those kinds of things .. but they didn't do it given protection of England (and I know you know what I mean). I don't live in a mostly republican area .... I live in the middle of a black hole and if you knew Belfast, you'd know that. How big is Bawnmore Estates? Not big at all .... Surely you know of Newtownabbey ... that's where I'm at (when I'm home). Newtownabbey ... over 90% protestant, unioinist, loyalist and those that just don't give a shit one way or the other. Mostly is all Protestant and Unionists with loads of Loyalists. You see the Orangies about all the time, you see those lovely Rangers fans also that confuse being a rangers fan with being a loyalist (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Those that I didn't want in Ireland (should we be united) would be all those that don't want to be a part of Ireland. Anybody who would be fighting and such after the fact. If England agreed to go willingly .. if all the soliders were removed and all the military were pulled out and such ... then why keep people about that would keep the fighting going even more so. It was Ireland before England got a hold of it and in 1801 made it a part of the UK and it should be Ireland once again (A Nation Once Again).

I do thank you for wishing me well in situations unresolved.

As for your thoughts of appealing to voters on the opposite side of the fences ... tis a good idea and one I mentions in here quite a while ago. I stated that the only way we were going to be able to make things work is if we can get the support of all the people one way or the other. See, if you are thinking about it in a political sense, then all people must work doubly hard to try to get things acceptable on all sides, but unfortunately that's a task that might seem near, if not, impossible. We have to work with the reality of it all and not the fantasitcal ideals of those of us who would like to see it resolved, even though our ideas of resolution be totally different. The whole thing is, if and when Ireland should be united again, or even the North become a nation unto itself, it will only have been done so because the majority of people wish it. It won't happen till then.

I did not forget the funeral event. What I was trying to do is find proof that I could put on the net. It was in Anderstown paper ... but I'm trying to find it at the net. I'm same as you and always want proof, and I'd be more than happy to get that for you, will just take a bit more time. Anyhoo, I must be off now .. got a few things a need to do and people I need to see. lol

Also, thanks for reading my jibberish and sorry it isn't always as well thought out or formed into this post as yours, but my time is kind of limited as I'm working while I'm here and I work two jobs actually, so I rarely have the time, but for some reason, since you've been posting, I've been making it here loads more often (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I never said it was always a part of the United Kingdom. England became a unified country in the 10th Century.

England and Wales united in 1284, and this was made more formal in the Act of Union of 1536.

Scotland joined with another Act of Union in 1707.

The United Kingdom came into being with the adoption of Ireland in the Act of Union 1801, as you say.

In 1921, the Anglo-Irish Treaty ratified an agreement in which 26 counties of Ireland left the UK and formed their own government. This region was eventually renamed as "Republic of Ireland". Ireland was renamed as "Northern Ireland".




It still is. I'm not Anglican. I'm not particularly worried about it tbh. Things have changed a lot since 1801.




There was no non-Conformist emancipation either. In 1704, more Penal Laws were introduced whi affected Dissenters (that's non-Anglicans.. Presbyterians and Roman Catholics etc). At this time though, Roman Catholic marriages were recognised and Presbyterian marriages were not.

In 1719 however, the Toleration Act excluded Dissenters from the penalties imposed on Roman Catholics.

In 1728 an Act was passed that forbade Roman Catholics from practising as solicitors.

In 1772, Roman Catholics were allowed to lease bogland.

In 1778, the Catholic Relief Act allowed Roman Catholics to once again inherit land and take long term leases.

Also in that year: "The threat of foreign invasion encouraged Protestants to form Volunteer Companies in Belfast and Dublin. By the end of the year 40,000 Volunteers were enlisted.
The American privateer, John Paul Jones, raided Belfast Lough."

In 1781, the Belfast Volunteers met in Armagh to demand independance for the Irish Parliament and reform.

In 1782, the Ulster Volunteers - mostly Presbyterians - met in Dungannon and called for a repeal of the Penal Laws and independant legislation for the Irish Parliament.
Further improvements in the Relief Acts added property rights and Roman Catholic schools.


In 1783, the Renunciation Act ratified independant legislation for the Irish Parliament.

In 1784 the Belfast Volunteers helped fund and erect St Mary's - the first Roman Catholic church in Belfast. They invited Roman Catholics to join the Volunteers.

In 1785, Roman Catholics in Ulster formed the Catholic Defenders.

In 1791, Samuel McTier and Robert Simms founded the Society of United Irishmen in Belfast.

In 1792, the Belfast Volunteers Convention voted for Catholic emancipation.
Further additions to the Catholic Relief Act allowed the practise of law and removed the 1746 ban on inter-marriage.

Skipping past the events surrounding the United Irishmen rebellion and the formation of the Orange Order, after the Act of Union in 1801, the House of Lords rejected a bill in 1825 for Roman Catholic emancipation.

Finally, in 1829, the Relief Act granted emancipation for Roman Catholics.

In 1836, the Orange Order disbanded.




The island has been called many things. Hibernia and Sacra are two of those names - both older than the name Ireland. Ireland never had a parliament of its own until the Normans started to build it up in that respect. Then later, until British control which led to the Act of Union in 1801.




Considering the close proximity of Roman Catholic and Protestant neighbourhoods, its hard to avoid having some parades going by a neighbourhood of the 'other side'.




Took your home? Took your land? Which of these people that take part in Orange Walks have taken anybodys' home or land..?




Actually that's wrong. The first celebrations of Patrick took place in Ireland in the 19th Century. It was celebrated in Boston, Massachusetts, USA before that though... the first parade having been in the 18th Century (1737).

Patrick lived and spread the Word of God before the Reformation. Although he wasn't the first, or only missionary from Britain, he is largely credited as being the most successful. Patrick was attached to the Church of Britain (as opposed to the Roman Catholic Church) and was never actually sainted. The colours he wore were not green - they were sky blue.




I don't know of any Orange parades in which they honour any dead people.




Well, the tradition of the Orange Walks is older than both that of the Easter Rising parades and Patrick's Day parades. So you tell me.




This is a simplistic picture of what the reality was, but you get my point..? You complain that there is no police protection... but you also complain if there are policemen present. You can see why they might want to keep their distance - for fear of provoking a reaction from the Republicans.


[quote]I can only say that republicans aren't all bad .. and yes there were some that did those kinds of things .. but they didn't do it given protection of England (and I know you know what I mean). I don't live in a mostly republican area .... I live in the middle of a black hole and if you knew Belfast, you'd know that. How big is Bawnmore Estates? Not big at all .... Surely you know of Newtownabbey ... that's where I'm at (when I'm home). Newtownabbey ... over 90% protestant, unioinist, loyalist and those that just don't give a shit one way or the other. Mostly is all Protestant and Unionists with loads of Loyalists. You see the Orangies about all the time, you see those lovely Rangers fans also that confuse being a rangers fan with being a loyalist (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) [quote]

Oh right .. so that's where Bawnmore is... Newtownabbey! lol




That's funny.. you know I'd really love all those who HAVE been 'fighting' to leave. I don't want them to get their way and then get everyone else to leave.

You can't cleanse a land of its people based on ethnicity, political ideology or religion. That kind of thing belongs in the past to dictatorships and empires. This is the 21st Century ffs!




England should agree to go where? You can't move England - its quite hefty, and somewhat attached to the continental shelf!

Let me tell you something: its not just English soldiers who have been murdered by the IRA and assorted Loyalist eejits - its Scottish, Welsh and IRISH soldiers too. And you can't remove the British from British territory.. unless you remove the territory constitutionally.




Who?




But it was never really a nation as such before the UK (not England) "got a hold of it". So how could it possibly be a nation "again"? The closest we ever got to it was back .. when.. the 1000s? When Brian Boru united the vast majority of us in an effort to rid us of the Vikings.




I'll tell you this much: I believe it will be a very slow process. And when I say a slow process, I don't mean necessarily a process towards a 32-county Republic. I mean a slow process to rid the religious and sectarian tag to our politics, to rid ourselves of the hatred, paranioa and bigotry, to rid ourselves of past offences carried out by both 'sides' (and by the security forces).




Thank you for understanding. Its not necessarily that I automatically don't believe you.. but - well you know how it is! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




Well I hope its of benefit. I hope we're both learning.. *something* .. from eachother! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just on the subject of that era of history, here are some interesting stats about the Great Famine.

Population of Ireland in 1841: 8,175,124 (pre-Famine).

Population of Ireland in 1851: 6,575,000 (post-Famine).

Population of Ireland in 1861: 5,800,000.

Population of Ireland in 1871: 5,400,000.

Population of Ireland in 1881: 5,200,000.

Population of Ireland in 1891: 4,705,000.

Population of Ireland in 1901: 4,459,000.

Population of Ireland in 1911: 4,400,000.

Population of Northern Ireland in 1926: 1,257,000.

Population of Northern Ireland in 1937: 1,280,000.

Population of Northern Ireland in 1961: 1,426,000.

Population of Northern Ireland in 2001: 1,700,000 (approx).

Population of Republic of Ireland in 2001: 4,000,000 (approx).

Population of Ireland in 2001: 5,700,000 (approx).

Some reading for you, Firinne that may help you navigate the quote wars in many of these threads and to help you develop your knowledge of Irish history.

The Green Flag: A History of Irish Nationalism by Robert Kee

Northern Ireland Since 1945 by Sabine Wichert

More to come once I get back to my library, but those are nice reference materials to have (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

*sigh* I'm only just at the pc the night ... I'd really love to respond to all that Setanta .. but I've just worked 13 hours and am knackered, both physically and mentally atm. I don't know how I'm going to be able to keep working and be able to do all I need to do otherwise, but I'm sure I'll enjoy the money even if what I get to take back home with me will be nearly half anything I make here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif) It's loads of hard work for very little. Anyhoo ... point here is that I can't think that much to respond to everything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif) would take me a few days seeing as how I'm working 10am to 2 am for the next four days. I'm not going to be able to keep up with those kinda posts lol So I'm going to keep these short and just to the point.

Simple statement ... I want to have all 32 together ... I want a unified Ireland. I want, I want, I want (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You want something different than I do, but the reality of it is that one or the other isn't going to get what they want and is possible that neither of us will get what we want. The only thing I'm concerned with is not losing any more people. I am sick of death ... I'm sick of sorrow and the heartache that consumes our lives at times ... what a way to keep a people oppressed eh? and when I say that, no I am not just referring to catholics/republicans/nationalists. In the most technical sense of the word, we are all brothers/sisters. We keep killing our own. No matter how you look at it .. it's the same ... prods kill prods .. loyalists kill loyalists .... republicans kill republicans ... it's endless ... it isn't even just an enemy .. for at times we are our own worst enemies. Maybe you get me, then again, maybe you don't. The only thing I can say is that no matter what happens ... what is there going to be left to call Ireland or UK should it be decided once and for all (which I'm not sure that's ever going to be possible). they stay and remain a part of the UK then we're going to have fighting .... if they go and becomes Ireland reunited with the south, or even it's own Northern Ireland separate from both ... there's going to be fighting. So I'm a bit confused ... I know what I want but I'm not sure what's the best way to go about it so that at the end of the day everyone can get on well with each other. I'm half asleep here so if I'm rambling .. just shoot me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) lmao