there is no excuse for murder ;)

and another thing...about beethoven's mother, it isnt what you THINK it is what you KNOW

that is just the thing! it isnt her body it is the child's body! (quote from NorCal)

I cant sit here and listen to this any longer. IT IS THE WOMANS BODY! A WOMAN HAS MORE RIGHTS THAN WHAT YOUR VERSION OF THE BIBLE TELLS YOU!!!!

Okay, I'm not too sure because I dont regularly check up on the happenings in teh Vativan but hasnt The Pope recognized the womans right to abortion if she falls pregnant to rape?

NorCalGuitarist
I'm not finding excuses, I just try to understand. I think understanding is a perfectly christian value, isn't it?

Patrick,
have to disagree on this point. It's not the woman's body : it's the child's one.

ChrisyBhoy,
I doubt that he allowed it, but maybe he said he could forgive it or understand it. Something of the kind. I don't check up either about the Vatican...

Most recently, the Second Vatican Council, presided over by Paul VI, has most severely condemned abortion: "Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes." The same Paul VI, speaking on this subject on many occasions, has not been afraid to declare that this teaching of the Church "has not changed and is unchangeable."

The Catholic Church is opposed to abortion as it believes that destroying any life - even a fertilised egg - is immoral.

There was a 15 year old that had been raped and the doctors and such performed an abortion and the church declared that they had excommunicated themselves with the performace of that said abortion. What the church had to say was ....

"It did not spare a thought to defending the rights of unborn babies, who are people, who have a right to live. The Church wanted to help this young girl, who should have been helped up until the birth of her child, but it also came out and stated the truth.

"And the truth is that human life is inviolable."


easier to read this ..

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...cfaithdocuments

rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html

Patrick, what do you mean by "Your version of the Bible"? I never brought Christianity into this, in fact I didn't bring any religion into this! The Pope would never accept any excuse for abortion, abortion=excommunication, in my opinion the only reason USA allows abortion is because they make money from it, the whole 'woman's body' thing is BS

Do you have your own "version of the Bible" that allows abortions? I doubt.

And I totally agree with NorCalGuitarist and WeeIrishDevil (did't expect such firmness in defending Christian values from the owner of such a nickname :) I'm pleasantly surprised :) ) that abortion results in excommunication ipso facto(by the very fact) not only in Roman Catholicism, but in all more or less orthodoxal denominations.

About the US and abortions: as far as I know that was the reason why US left UNESCO in early eighties, when President Reagan (God bless his soul) was at power.

And yes, too much money is made from abortions. But to my knowledge, they are illegal in Ireland, aren't they? If it's still so, the country may be called the last stronghold of Christianity in Europe, if not in the world.

anybody see this tiny little dots on everywhere on my body? yes, these are goosebumps...i just shudered, when i read "the last stronghold of christianity in europe" what's next?

WE NEED STAKES TO BURN THE ONE AND ONLY FAITH INTO THEM!!! LETS BUILD STAKES!

pictures of the crowd coming up in my mind that storms through the transsylvanian village and mountainside to frankenstein's castle (and yeah, i think iam mixing something up there)...

geez, why would we need "a last stronghold of christianity" while our aim is a tolerant continent of ALL religions and non-religions being able to live peacefully together...
really, i am waiting for somebody like you,dennis, to say a thing like : "all europe is being undermined by muslim terrorists who want to gnaw away at the fundamental christian society and family values with their bombs and their quran "







(everybody else, sorry for the ramble!)

David

German,
come on, no need to get scared. No one is asking to the Inquisition to burn anyone.

About excommunication,
there are now so many reasons to be excommunicated, I wonder if I'm not already??? Excommunication is something I'll never understand I think. On the one hand they praise forgiving, repenting etc, on the other hand, they punish with exclusion. Well well, I remember now, why i never go to Church. I act according to my own conscience. I believe I can do whatever I want, providing it does not harm anyone. And if by some accident, I hurt someone, well I'm sorry, and I'll have an explanation with whoever I see on the day of my death. That's all. So much less trouble like that.

Dennis,
sorry I didn't really follow everything. Why did US leave UNESCO? And is there any reason to be proud of that??

Well, as you may guess, excomunication is not for life. You'll just have to confess your sin, and you'll be in communion again. Excomunication is a formal act symbolizing that a person doing some things is incompatible with the Church unless he repents. See CIC (Code of Canonical Law) or consult with your parish priest for details.



That's right! That's what everyone should do! Provided that "anyone" in your sentence includes God:)



US used to be the major donor of UNESCO, but it started some program that included some pro-abortion propaganda. That's why US withdrew. And yes, US can be proud of it.

Charlotte, he didn't mention the Inquisition with the words he wrote, but with the meaning of the words... :ph34r:

I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone here if I have offended you. We all have our own beliefs and should respect that. However, Thumping the bible and telling people how they HAVE to live is a little controling dont you think? Contraception doesnt always work. We all make mistakes. Thats what we are suppose to do. Make mistakes and learn from them. I think God is forgiving like that. I agree with Charlotte as far as living my life by MY own conscience. I believe in God, but without all the fire and brimstone stuff. I have an analogy that I would like you to comment on.... Lets say you are an Olympic athelete. You have trained your entire life to achieve the level in which you are at. You find out that even with several methods of contraceptives, you got pregnant. Do you just give up everything you have trained for your entire life? Do you quietly dissapear from the sports world to raise a child that has changed the course of your entire life? A difficult decision to say the least, but still a choice. Good or bad, Right or wrong, You should have the choice for the outcome.

You're absolutely right. I just advise, I don't demand. Everyone has his choice. I'm just a humble Christian doing my duty of preaching, which is not about making someone do something, but rather showing the way which I think is right.

<Lets say you are an Olympic athelete. You have trained your entire life to achieve the level in which you are at. You find out that even with several methods of contraceptives, you got pregnant. Do you just give up everything you have trained for your entire life? Do you quietly dissapear from the sports world to raise a child that has changed the course of your entire life? A difficult decision to say the least, but still a choice.>

Exuse me, it doesn't seem to be a correct example. If one finds possible to murder a child for the sake of her career, it is not right. I can understand such reasons as health, age, stupidity, but if one KNOWINGLY sacrifices a human life for a career, I don't understand that. It's capital murder, in my opinion.

I may look a conservative asshole, but what can I do?

Yes, Patrick. You'd have to give up your sports. My brother had to give up ice-skating (and he was damn good at it !) for less than that.

Fionas, I know he didn't mention it.

Dennis, ok. Then I can kill, have sex, take drugs and go to confession and I'll be ok? Nice to know. :lol:

I don't see why God should be harmed when no human is.

I think the UNESCO did many valuable things. There's nothing to be proud of.